Discussion:
Fedora and the System Administrator
(too old to reply)
Erik Williamson
2003-09-30 20:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

I've looked around, read most of the archives on this list & have seen
the topic sort of mentioned, but not directly... so here goes:

I've got about 120 machines (servers & workstations) running 7.3 and 9.
I was going to roll RH9 out department-wide, but then realized that
it's end-of-life is scheduled for April 2004, which is smack-dab in the
middle of the semester.

I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years. I
feel that this is fair.

I've looked into RHEL; my "higher-ups" are VERY squeamish about paying
for anything. I'm contemplating switching to another distribution with
longer life-cycles, but I'm very comfy with RHL, and don't want to switch.

(finally) My question is this: What is the anticipated life-cycle for
Fedora releases? I know that there will be core updates every four
months - by 'core' I gather this means kernel, gcc, glib, X, etc... but
how long will a core release last - is it based on popularity/stability?
I've seen lots of talk about other companies that provide support for
end-of-life RH releases, and can assume that it will continue with
Fedora, but for a university with a $50M+ defeceit this year, paying is
not an option.

Any thoughts/views would be greatly appreciated -

Cheers & Thanks!
Erik.
--
e r i k w i l l i a m s o n erik at cpsc.ucalgary.ca
system admin . department of computer science . university of calgary
Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-09-30 20:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Williamson
I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years. I
feel that this is fair.
2 years? then Debian is for you. I don't know others that they offer
2 years of lifetime _free_
Post by Erik Williamson
(finally) My question is this: What is the anticipated life-cycle for
Fedora releases? I know that there will be core updates every four
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html

I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
--
SCO before, Smoking Crack Often now.
Jef Spaleta
2003-09-30 20:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Williamson
I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years.
I feel that this is fair.
You might want to sit down and make sure there are no breakable objects
nearby.

http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
Fedora Project:
Update Lifetime 2-3 months after next release

Now...before you go into a hulkish rage. Look at
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/terminology.html

Fedora Legacy definition.
If you are interested in seeing Fedora Legacy support for your boxen to
the tune of the 2 year span you are interested in....you need to be part
of the discussion and part of the community legacy effort sooner rather
than later.

Other options of course is to talk to Red Hat sales about working out
some licensing options. I'm pretty sure Red Hat a rep has been on the
fedora mailing list saying they are willing to talk about .edu about
discussing things.

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2003-September/msg00133.html


-jef
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Erik Williamson
2003-09-30 21:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jef Spaleta
You might want to sit down and make sure there are no breakable objects
nearby.
Heh, thanks for the chuckle - I needed that!
Post by Jef Spaleta
Other options of course is to talk to Red Hat sales about working out
some licensing options. I'm pretty sure Red Hat a rep has been on the
fedora mailing list saying they are willing to talk about .edu about
discussing things.
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2003-September/msg00133.html
I agree with Tom's posting here, quite well written. I spoke with
couple reps from RedHat and there's a deal whereby if you buy the RHEL
Proxy ($2500 USD, incl RHAS), you can get Enterprise workstation for $25
USD/seat in quantities over 100.

That's one hell of a price break - so 100 seats comes out to $5000 -
Which I feel is a good price. Unfortunately the Head of the Department
doesn't. He also doesn't understand that it's going to cost a good
chunk of change to migrate to another distro in terms of worker hours.

I absolutely love Redhat. Sadly enough - the way things are going, it's
really going to suck having to stop using it here. Make no mistake!
I'm not blaming redhat for this.

Thanks for your response,
Erik.
--
e r i k w i l l i a m s o n erik at cpsc.ucalgary.ca
system admin . department of computer science . university of calgary
Erik Williamson
2003-09-30 21:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jef Spaleta
You might want to sit down and make sure there are no breakable objects
nearby.
Heh, thanks for the chuckle - I needed that!
Post by Jef Spaleta
Other options of course is to talk to Red Hat sales about working out
some licensing options. I'm pretty sure Red Hat a rep has been on the
fedora mailing list saying they are willing to talk about .edu about
discussing things.
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2003-September/msg00133.html
I agree with Tom's posting here, quite well written. I spoke with
couple reps from RedHat and there's a deal whereby if you buy the RHEL
Proxy ($2500 USD, incl RHAS), you can get Enterprise workstation for $25
USD/seat in quantities over 100.

That's one hell of a price break - so 100 seats comes out to $5000 -
Which I feel is a good price. Unfortunately the Head of the Department
doesn't. He also doesn't understand that it's going to cost a good
chunk of change to migrate to another distro in terms of worker hours.

I absolutely love Redhat. Sadly enough - the way things are going, it's
really going to suck having to stop using it here. Make no mistake!
I'm not blaming redhat for this.

Thanks for your response,
Erik.
--
e r i k w i l l i a m s o n erik at cpsc.ucalgary.ca
system admin . department of computer science . university of calgary
Benjamin J. Weiss
2003-09-30 23:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xose Vazquez Perez
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
Whoa! Am I reading this correctly? Approximately nine months after a
version is released, apt/yum/up2date will stop working for a release?
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!

At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*

Ben
Stephen Smoogen
2003-09-30 23:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
Post by Xose Vazquez Perez
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
Whoa! Am I reading this correctly? Approximately nine months after a
version is released, apt/yum/up2date will stop working for a release?
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!
At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*
1) Read the FAQ and website.
2) If you NEED long term stability then you are going to have to pay for
it. You can either pay Red Hat for RHEL, pay an outside contractor to
maintain packages for 2 year length of time, or pay people inside your
company to maintain those packages.
3) If you dont really NEED long term stability you can hope that there
will be enough interest in Fedora Legacy so that older releases will be
maintained by people. However those will be volunteers and may drop a
package at any time.

I dont expect that this will be any different for any of the Linux
companies and volunteer orgs (Debian) in the coming years. Everytime
there is a new Debian, the security volunteers say they will only
maintain the old release for 6 months and there is great wailing and
nashing of teeth about how shitty Debian is.

In the end, there is no such thing as a free lunch/coke/os. The first
one might seem free, but eventually its gonna cost ya.
--
Stephen John Smoogen smoogen at lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Lab CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 4-0645
Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S Los Alamos, NM 87545
-- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka --
David Chait
2003-09-30 23:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Smoogen
I dont expect that this will be any different for any of the Linux
companies and volunteer orgs (Debian) in the coming years. Everytime
there is a new Debian, the security volunteers say they will only
maintain the old release for 6 months and there is great wailing and
nashing of teeth about how shitty Debian is.
The difference of course is, Debian offers a stable release life of over 2
years prior. That is hardly as aggravating as making a major migration
potentially twice a year. I think you will find very few orgs willing to
deploy Fedora under those conditions, and even fewer able to justify paying
for RHEL being that it is quite expensive compared to other options.
Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-10-01 00:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chait
The difference of course is, Debian offers a stable release life of over 2
years prior. That is hardly as aggravating as making a major migration
because its development cycle is looooonger, exactly 2 years or sometimes more.
Then it's natural and easy for Debian to have longer lifetimes.
--
:x
David Chait
2003-09-30 23:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Smoogen
I dont expect that this will be any different for any of the Linux
companies and volunteer orgs (Debian) in the coming years. Everytime
there is a new Debian, the security volunteers say they will only
maintain the old release for 6 months and there is great wailing and
nashing of teeth about how shitty Debian is.
The difference of course is, Debian offers a stable release life of over 2
years prior. That is hardly as aggravating as making a major migration
potentially twice a year. I think you will find very few orgs willing to
deploy Fedora under those conditions, and even fewer able to justify paying
for RHEL being that it is quite expensive compared to other options.
Stephen Smoogen
2003-09-30 23:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
Post by Xose Vazquez Perez
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
Whoa! Am I reading this correctly? Approximately nine months after a
version is released, apt/yum/up2date will stop working for a release?
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!
At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*
1) Read the FAQ and website.
2) If you NEED long term stability then you are going to have to pay for
it. You can either pay Red Hat for RHEL, pay an outside contractor to
maintain packages for 2 year length of time, or pay people inside your
company to maintain those packages.
3) If you dont really NEED long term stability you can hope that there
will be enough interest in Fedora Legacy so that older releases will be
maintained by people. However those will be volunteers and may drop a
package at any time.

I dont expect that this will be any different for any of the Linux
companies and volunteer orgs (Debian) in the coming years. Everytime
there is a new Debian, the security volunteers say they will only
maintain the old release for 6 months and there is great wailing and
nashing of teeth about how shitty Debian is.

In the end, there is no such thing as a free lunch/coke/os. The first
one might seem free, but eventually its gonna cost ya.
--
Stephen John Smoogen smoogen at lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Lab CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 4-0645
Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S Los Alamos, NM 87545
-- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka --
Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-10-01 00:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
Post by Xose Vazquez Perez
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
Whoa! Am I reading this correctly? Approximately nine months after a
version is released, apt/yum/up2date will stop working for a release?
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!
At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*
whith Fedora too, 6-9 months ;-)

There is people talking about to create an community project, out of
Red Hat/Fedora Core, to extend lifetime. But there is no warranties,
only people goodwill.
--
:x
Alexandre Oliva
2003-10-01 00:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!
You may want to convince him to join the Fedora Legacy project. Or,
if he wants something supported by Red Hat for a longer period, Red
Hat Enterprise Linux.
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*
Which came at a cost. Who paid for that?
--
Alexandre Oliva Enjoy Guarana', see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat GCC Developer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
CS PhD student at IC-Unicamp oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist Professional serial bug killer
Erik Williamson
2003-09-30 20:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

I've looked around, read most of the archives on this list & have seen
the topic sort of mentioned, but not directly... so here goes:

I've got about 120 machines (servers & workstations) running 7.3 and 9.
I was going to roll RH9 out department-wide, but then realized that
it's end-of-life is scheduled for April 2004, which is smack-dab in the
middle of the semester.

I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years. I
feel that this is fair.

I've looked into RHEL; my "higher-ups" are VERY squeamish about paying
for anything. I'm contemplating switching to another distribution with
longer life-cycles, but I'm very comfy with RHL, and don't want to switch.

(finally) My question is this: What is the anticipated life-cycle for
Fedora releases? I know that there will be core updates every four
months - by 'core' I gather this means kernel, gcc, glib, X, etc... but
how long will a core release last - is it based on popularity/stability?
I've seen lots of talk about other companies that provide support for
end-of-life RH releases, and can assume that it will continue with
Fedora, but for a university with a $50M+ defeceit this year, paying is
not an option.

Any thoughts/views would be greatly appreciated -

Cheers & Thanks!
Erik.
--
e r i k w i l l i a m s o n erik at cpsc.ucalgary.ca
system admin . department of computer science . university of calgary
Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-09-30 20:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Williamson
I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years. I
feel that this is fair.
2 years? then Debian is for you. I don't know others that they offer
2 years of lifetime _free_
Post by Erik Williamson
(finally) My question is this: What is the anticipated life-cycle for
Fedora releases? I know that there will be core updates every four
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html

I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
--
SCO before, Smoking Crack Often now.
Jef Spaleta
2003-09-30 20:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Williamson
I've recently been asked/told to limit OS releases to every 2 years.
I feel that this is fair.
You might want to sit down and make sure there are no breakable objects
nearby.

http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
Fedora Project:
Update Lifetime 2-3 months after next release

Now...before you go into a hulkish rage. Look at
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/terminology.html

Fedora Legacy definition.
If you are interested in seeing Fedora Legacy support for your boxen to
the tune of the 2 year span you are interested in....you need to be part
of the discussion and part of the community legacy effort sooner rather
than later.

Other options of course is to talk to Red Hat sales about working out
some licensing options. I'm pretty sure Red Hat a rep has been on the
fedora mailing list saying they are willing to talk about .edu about
discussing things.

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2003-September/msg00133.html


-jef
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Benjamin J. Weiss
2003-09-30 23:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xose Vazquez Perez
Fedora lifetime is from 6 to 9 *months* http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
I would like to see an extension of 6 months more, more or less. At least
for _base_(kernel....) components.
Whoa! Am I reading this correctly? Approximately nine months after a
version is released, apt/yum/up2date will stop working for a release?
Holy shit, my boss is gonna can this distro completely!

At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*

Ben
Chuck Wolber
2003-10-01 00:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Smoogen
Post by Benjamin J. Weiss
At least with RHL we had *some* stability....*sigh*
2) If you NEED long term stability then you are going to have to pay for
it. You can either pay Red Hat for RHEL, pay an outside contractor to
maintain packages for 2 year length of time, or pay people inside your
company to maintain those packages.
Or join the rh-consortium and help pool the necessary resources to provide
that support. Mailing list here:

http://www.quantumlinux.com/mailman/listinfo/rh-consortium
Post by Stephen Smoogen
3) If you dont really NEED long term stability you can hope that there
will be enough interest in Fedora Legacy so that older releases will be
maintained by people. However those will be volunteers and may drop a
package at any time.
We're keeping a close eye on Fedora Legacy. If it does what we need, then
we're home free. If not, then that's what we're doing this for.

-Chuck
--
Quantum Linux Laboratories - ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology
* Education | -=^ Ad Astra Per Aspera ^=-
* Integration | http://www.quantumlinux.com
* Support | chuckw at quantumlinux.com
Chuck Wolber
2003-10-01 00:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chait
Post by Stephen Smoogen
I dont expect that this will be any different for any of the Linux
companies and volunteer orgs (Debian) in the coming years. Everytime
there is a new Debian, the security volunteers say they will only
maintain the old release for 6 months and there is great wailing and
nashing of teeth about how shitty Debian is.
The difference of course is, Debian offers a stable release life of over
2 years prior. That is hardly as aggravating as making a major migration
potentially twice a year. I think you will find very few orgs willing to
deploy Fedora under those conditions, and even fewer able to justify
paying for RHEL being that it is quite expensive compared to other
options.
That's our point. When you deploy on hundreds of servers, like many of the
consortium members do, there's no chance in heck that we're going to pay a
minimum of $179 (on up to $2500 IIRC) *PER* server. I'd much prefer to
pool resources and distribute the cost.

-Chuck
--
Quantum Linux Laboratories - ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology
* Education | -=^ Ad Astra Per Aspera ^=-
* Integration | http://www.quantumlinux.com
* Support | chuckw at quantumlinux.com
Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-10-01 00:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Wolber
That's our point. When you deploy on hundreds of servers, like many of the
consortium members do, there's no chance in heck that we're going to pay a
minimum of $179 (on up to $2500 IIRC) *PER* server. I'd much prefer to
pool resources and distribute the cost.
RH offers discounts to big quantities of licenses:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2003-September/msg00424.html
--
:x
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