Discussion:
Ubuntu 1, Fedora 0
(too old to reply)
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-16 12:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.

The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.

I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.

I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.

In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Charles Curley
2007-03-16 13:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
I seem to have missed that. I pulled in the CD, and have booted one
machine here sucessfully. On shutdown, the system did not eject the
CD, so I was stuck with a CD in a powered down CD drive. I trust the
maintainers have already figured that one out. Other than that, my
limited testing showed no problems.

I had boot problems on another machine, which I believe are related to
the fact that the CD-ROM drive is at hdb instead of the more common
hdc.
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong with the CD
reading part of Fedora CDs, as many people report problems
installing Fedora this way.
I did not test the installation.
--
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Stefan Held
2007-03-16 13:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.03.2007 13:38 Uhr schrieb "Timothy Murphy" unter
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
Yes, this is what is called a stable Version of Ubuntu.
Post by Timothy Murphy
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
Which is also a Stable Release of Knoppix
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
I downloaded both, DVD and CD Torrent of F7 Test 1 and 2.

Both worked like a charm on my machine.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
I did not answer but yes, it worked for me.
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
Why should it? Did you verify the sha1 summs of your download?

Did you test the same CD on a bunch of identical Machines/CD Drives?

Did you try to burn the CD with 4x speed only? Then test again?
--
Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes:
obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time,
IRCNet: Obi_Wan the second destroys the text.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG-Keyprint = EAF2 6A65 D102 F2DB 4970 2A67 455B 98F2 572C 3FA9
jim tate
2007-03-16 13:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Held
Am 16.03.2007 13:38 Uhr schrieb "Timothy Murphy" unter
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
Yes, this is what is called a stable Version of Ubuntu.
Post by Timothy Murphy
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
Which is also a Stable Release of Knoppix
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
I downloaded both, DVD and CD Torrent of F7 Test 1 and 2.
Both worked like a charm on my machine.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
I did not answer but yes, it worked for me.
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
Why should it? Did you verify the sha1 summs of your download?
Did you test the same CD on a bunch of identical Machines/CD Drives?
Did you try to burn the CD with 4x speed only? Then test again?
Well you are definitely doing something wrong, I have downloaded a
number CD's, DVD's of fedora 5,6,7 test 1,2 and burn and run them with
no problems.
Is this just a excuse to go to ubuntu?
I hold Linux meeting once a month and the Ubuntu people are spreading
the FUD around that Fedora is a bleeding edge, unstable, distro, these
guys are beginning to sound like $MS people.
Fedora 5, 6 , I have installed both and did updates on a number of
boxes, i386, X86_64 and had no problems.
Fedora comes out with a kernel update more often the other distro's ,
that could cause problems.
After you have done your first update, after installation, don't update
the kernel anymore, put a line in /etc/yum.conf
exclude=kernel .
The kernel only needs to be updated if you have need for new drivers.

Jim
Patrick
2007-03-16 14:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim tate
Post by Stefan Held
Am 16.03.2007 13:38 Uhr schrieb "Timothy Murphy" unter
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
Yes, this is what is called a stable Version of Ubuntu.
Post by Timothy Murphy
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
Which is also a Stable Release of Knoppix
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
I downloaded both, DVD and CD Torrent of F7 Test 1 and 2.
Both worked like a charm on my machine.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
I did not answer but yes, it worked for me.
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
Why should it? Did you verify the sha1 summs of your download?
Did you test the same CD on a bunch of identical Machines/CD Drives?
Did you try to burn the CD with 4x speed only? Then test again?
Well you are definitely doing something wrong, I have downloaded a
number CD's, DVD's of fedora 5,6,7 test 1,2 and burn and run them with
no problems.
Same here.
Post by jim tate
Is this just a excuse to go to ubuntu?
If so the OP is welcome to do so and I hope he finds what he is seeking.
I like using Fedora and there are those that like Ubuntu as I'm made all
too aware of by rather loud Ubuntu fanboys.
Post by jim tate
I hold Linux meeting once a month and the Ubuntu people are spreading
the FUD around that Fedora is a bleeding edge, unstable, distro, these
guys are beginning to sound like $MS people.
I share that observation.
Post by jim tate
Fedora 5, 6 , I have installed both and did updates on a number of
boxes, i386, X86_64 and had no problems.
Fedora comes out with a kernel update more often the other distro's ,
that could cause problems.
After you have done your first update, after installation, don't update
the kernel anymore, put a line in /etc/yum.conf
exclude=kernel .
The kernel only needs to be updated if you have need for new drivers.
And fixes for security issues off course :)

Regards,
Patrick
linuxmaillists
2007-03-16 14:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
I like using Fedora and there are those
that like Ubuntu as I'm made all too aware of by rather
loud Ubuntu fanboys.
The OP appears to being doing that by way of his subject.
--
If the word following begins with
a vowel, the word you want is...
to read the rest of this, go here
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/a.html
Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 10:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by linuxmaillists
The OP appears to being doing that by way of his subject.
Especially since he compares a stable release of Ubuntu and Knoppix with a
test release of Fedora 7.

Regards
Ingemar
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-20 14:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by linuxmaillists
The OP appears to being doing that by way of his subject.
Especially since he compares a stable release of Ubuntu and Knoppix with a
test release of Fedora 7.
As the OP, may I say again that I am not a Ubuntu mole.
But if someone advertises a boot disk,
whether it is a test release or not,
it should boot.

I like Fedora (although the difference between Linux distributions
is exaggerated to a ludicrous degree, IMHO -
I'd love to test fanatics by getting them to say which is running
on a particular laptop),
but in my experience there is something wrong
with Anaconda's basic approach to CD readers.

Personally, I am willing to put up with problems installing a distribution
if I really want to install it,
and I have put up with enormous problems in the past to install Fedora -
the worst being, as I mentioned, on Sony PictureBooks.

I wish Fedora would undertake some modest investigation
to see what problems people have with installation.
I have suggested this, but been told that it would be a mammoth task,
which I find difficult to believe.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Anne Wilson
2007-03-20 16:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
As the OP, may I say again that I am not a Ubuntu mole.
But if someone advertises a boot disk,
whether it is a test release or not,
it should boot.
As I believe someone else pointed out, Ubuntu does not boot on all systems.
It didn't on the one I tried it on.

Anne
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Michael Wiktowy
2007-03-20 18:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Personally, I am willing to put up with problems installing a distribution
if I really want to install it,
and I have put up with enormous problems in the past to install Fedora -
the worst being, as I mentioned, on Sony PictureBooks.
In my experience, Sony has notoriously suck-tastic support for
recordable media in their drives due to their love for DRM. Since
Ubuntu disks from ShipIt are pressed and not burned on recordable
media, could it be that you are having issues with a particular
brand/type of recordable media that you are using to burn Fedora
images on? Just a thought since, by my recollection, I have yet to
have any issue, *ever*, with a Fedora CD not booting and I have been
tracking various stable/unstable versions on a wide variety of
machines since before Fedora. I have had some problems with a few
other distros but mainly in the kernel loading stage due to missing
hardware support in the initrd.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I wish Fedora would undertake some modest investigation
to see what problems people have with installation.
I have suggested this, but been told that it would be a mammoth task,
which I find difficult to believe.
The proper course of action would be for you to first troubleshoot
your own kit to see if the issue is local to faulty (broken or by
design) hardware. Then, once you determine that you are not at fault,
point your finger at the Fedora Project by filling out a bug report
recording your hardware details and what you have done to verify that
you have working hardware (booted several other burned CDs, did a
media check on the Fedora CD, etc.). That is how this truly mammoth
task of getting 100% hardware support is accomplished ... not by
writing inflammatory emails to public mailing lists accusing the
Fedora devs of ignoring some huge shortcoming in their distro.

... and in the end, Fedora (or at least used to) provides an
old-school floppy disk image for those systems that can't boot from CD
for some reason. I doubt they do for the LiveCD though. You could
always try a syslinux boot to CD boot floppy.
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-20 23:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
Personally, I am willing to put up with problems installing a
distribution if I really want to install it,
and I have put up with enormous problems in the past to install Fedora -
the worst being, as I mentioned, on Sony PictureBooks.
In my experience, Sony has notoriously suck-tastic support for
recordable media in their drives due to their love for DRM.
I really don't think DRM has anything to do with the problems I had
with the Sony PictureBook - problems I might say that everybody had
with these machines.
The essential point was that the PictureBook
was very picky about boot devices - for example,
you could only boot (Windows or Linux) from their own PCMCIA-CD reader.

But Fedora was particularly difficult to boot,
and in fact I never succeeded in booting Fedora 2 to 5 from a CD
on these machines; I always installed Fedora in a different way.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Since
Ubuntu disks from ShipIt are pressed and not burned on recordable
media, could it be that you are having issues with a particular
brand/type of recordable media that you are using to burn Fedora
images on?
I'm not sure what you mean by "Ubuntu disks from ShipIt".
The particular Ubuntu Live CD I used was downloaded and burnt
in exactly the same way as my Fedora CDs.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Just a thought since, by my recollection, I have yet to
have any issue, *ever*, with a Fedora CD not booting and I have been
tracking various stable/unstable versions on a wide variety of
machines since before Fedora.
So, you are very lucky.
If you read this newsgroup/mailing list you must have seen
many people complaining of exactly the same issues as me.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
I have had some problems with a few
other distros but mainly in the kernel loading stage due to missing
hardware support in the initrd.
Actually, Fedora in the past has been pretty bad on my SCSI only machine,
for the reason you give.
I always upgrade on that machine, so I have an old compiled kernel
to fall back on.
To be fair, with Fedora 6 I had more disk space,
so I installed (rather than upgraded) it,
leaving Fedora 5 on another partition in case FC-6 didn't work.
The Fedora-6 kernel did in fact work OK.

[I'm not a great fan of Fedora - or any other distribution - kernels;
basically, I have more confidence in Linus and his team
and prefer to keep kernel and distribution distinct.]
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
I wish Fedora would undertake some modest investigation
to see what problems people have with installation.
I have suggested this, but been told that it would be a mammoth task,
which I find difficult to believe.
The proper course of action would be for you to first troubleshoot
your own kit to see if the issue is local to faulty (broken or by
design) hardware.
Sorry, that is a silly remark.
As far as I am concerned, if Windows runs OK on a computer,
and Knoppix and Slax boot OK,
but Fedora does not boot,
then the fault lies with Fedora not with the machine.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Then, once you determine that you are not at fault,
point your finger at the Fedora Project by filling out a bug report
recording your hardware details and what you have done to verify that
you have working hardware (booted several other burned CDs, did a
media check on the Fedora CD, etc.). That is how this truly mammoth
task of getting 100% hardware support is accomplished ... not by
writing inflammatory emails to public mailing lists accusing the
Fedora devs of ignoring some huge shortcoming in their distro.
I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that the Anaconda developers
are not at present open to suggestion;
they share your view that if their program does not run on your machine
then there is something wrong with your machine.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
... and in the end, Fedora (or at least used to) provides an
old-school floppy disk image for those systems that can't boot from CD
for some reason. I doubt they do for the LiveCD though. You could
always try a syslinux boot to CD boot floppy.
Do any machines have floppy drives nowadays?
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Michael Wiktowy
2007-03-21 03:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Post by Michael Wiktowy
In my experience, Sony has notoriously suck-tastic support for
recordable media in their drives due to their love for DRM.
I really don't think DRM has anything to do with the problems I had
with the Sony PictureBook - problems I might say that everybody had
with these machines.
The essential point was that the PictureBook
was very picky about boot devices - for example,
you could only boot (Windows or Linux) from their own PCMCIA-CD reader.
So you are saying the everyone with this hardware is having problems
but it couldn't be the hardware's fault ... hmmm ... odd sort of
logic.
Post by Timothy Murphy
But Fedora was particularly difficult to boot,
and in fact I never succeeded in booting Fedora 2 to 5 from a CD
on these machines; I always installed Fedora in a different way.
Have you had similar problems on other distinctly different hardware?
You are saying that Ubuntu boots fine on these machines?
Have you submitted a bug report on this and kept it from expiring if
the problem wasn't solved by verifying that it still exists in new
versions?
Post by Timothy Murphy
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Since
Ubuntu disks from ShipIt are pressed and not burned on recordable
media, could it be that you are having issues with a particular
brand/type of recordable media that you are using to burn Fedora
images on?
I'm not sure what you mean by "Ubuntu disks from ShipIt".
The particular Ubuntu Live CD I used was downloaded and burnt
in exactly the same way as my Fedora CDs.
I mention ShipIt (being a Ubuntu fan, I am surprised you have not
heard of it) because they send you free "pressed" disks ... like store
bought software and music CDs ... that have a much higher signal
reflection than the recordable media that relies on chemical means to
encode the data rather than physical pits. So that might account for
any difference. But since you burn the Ubuntu ones yourself, that is
likely not the issue in your case.
Post by Timothy Murphy
So, you are very lucky.
If you read this newsgroup/mailing list you must have seen
many people complaining of exactly the same issues as me.
I have been reading this mailing list for a long time. And while I
can't take in everything all the time, I can safely say that your
claims of "many people" and "exactly" are overstated.
There have been a few people having issues booting from time to time
but after some bug reports and some detailed problem description, it
normally turns out to be some hardware interpreting the CD-ROM
standards in some strange and wonderful ways. The Fedora devs usually
find a way around if they can ... once they know the source of the
problem.
You know how many bugs I found in any state reporting boot issues for
the Picturebook?
Zarro
Post by Timothy Murphy
Post by Michael Wiktowy
The proper course of action would be for you to first troubleshoot
your own kit to see if the issue is local to faulty (broken or by
design) hardware.
Sorry, that is a silly remark.
As far as I am concerned, if Windows runs OK on a computer,
and Knoppix and Slax boot OK,
but Fedora does not boot,
then the fault lies with Fedora not with the machine.
You think doing some troubleshooting yourself before blaming someone
else for your problems is silly ... how odd since you seem to have
done some of this troubleshooting already. Do Knoppix and Slax use a
different bootloader for their CDs?
Post by Timothy Murphy
I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that the Anaconda developers
are not at present open to suggestion;
they share your view that if their program does not run on your machine
then there is something wrong with your machine.
You keep on making vague accusations about Anaconda ... how do you
figure that anaconda factors into a CD not booting? I would think that
would be more of a syslinux/grub/lilo sort of issue ... long before
anaconda has a chance to do anything.

Also, if you assume that is my view (to always blame hardware), then
you had best read what I wrote rather than your assumption about what
I wrote.
Post by Timothy Murphy
Do any machines have floppy drives nowadays?
The important question is, do *you* have one? They are cheaper than
dirt these days and might save you some grief.

If you expect a team of Fedora devs to come over to your house and
read your mind in order to find out what the specifics of your problem
is, don't hold your breath.
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-21 16:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
The essential point was that the PictureBook
was very picky about boot devices - for example,
you could only boot (Windows or Linux) from their own PCMCIA-CD reader.
So you are saying the everyone with this hardware is having problems
but it couldn't be the hardware's fault ... hmmm ... odd sort of
logic.
The Fedora CD#1 would not boot on this machine.
(Nor would RedHat-9, as a matter of interest, though RedHat-8 did.)
SuSE did install, Knoppix and SLAX booted fine.

So I had to go to a lot of trouble to install Fedora.
That's all I am saying.

I don't believe in attaching "fault" to inanimate objects,
but if I did I would say that Fedora CDs and PictureBook
were maritally incompatible.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
But Fedora was particularly difficult to boot,
and in fact I never succeeded in booting Fedora 2 to 5 from a CD
on these machines; I always installed Fedora in a different way.
Have you had similar problems on other distinctly different hardware?
Yes, as I said I had a lot of problems with an Asus SCSI-only machine.
(As a matter of interest, I had even more trouble installing Windows-2000
on this machine, for the same reason - the SCSI controller had to be loaded
before one was told that the SCSI controller had to be loaded.)

I also had problems with the x86_64 distribution
on an Athlon64 machine (as did many other people).
The 386 version ran fine.

And I was unable to install Fedora-5 on an AMD Sempron machine
from CDs because of repeated CD reader failures.
Again, when I asked about this I found many people
had had the same experience.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
You are saying that Ubuntu boots fine on these machines?
Pleez.
I am not a Ubuntu ambassador.
It was a sheer fluke I tried a Ubuntu Live CD -
I had just read about it on SlashDot, and downloaded and burnt it.
The fact that it booted on all my machines simply confirmed
the view I have expressed that there is something wrong
with the Fedora installation when it comes to reading CDs.
Nothing I've read in this thread has changed my opinion on this,
or given me the slightest hope that anyone involved with this development
might possibly look into the problem.
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
Do any machines have floppy drives nowadays?
The important question is, do *you* have one? They are cheaper than
dirt these days and might save you some grief.
You suggested that one could install Fedora from floppies.
I doubt if that is true, but in any case it would irrelevant
to the vast majority of users since very few if any machines nowadays
come with floppy drives.

As I have explained (many times) when I have problems with Fedora CDs -
which is too often the case - I install from the hard disk.

I certainly would not purchase a floppy drive for this purpose.

Incidentally, I have never had any problem booting Fedora
from CDs made with "mkbootdisk --iso".
Post by Michael Wiktowy
If you expect a team of Fedora devs to come over to your house and
read your mind in order to find out what the specifics of your problem
is, don't hold your breath.
I have actually communicated with the Anaconda developers,
and have received more or less the same answer as you gave,
that the "fault" must lie with the computer.

The commonest symptom is fairly easy to describe:
the installation fails while reading one of the CDs,
and the error message states that it could not find some RPM.
The installation then bombs out,
and one cannot read the logfile as suggested
since there is no system running on the machine.

When I had the same problem installing Windows on a ThinkPad
(I was told a DLL could not be found)
I was able to take out the CD and re-insert it,
when the problem was no longer reported and the installation continued
from where it had stopped.

IIRC, this used to be possible with RedHat ...
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Les Mikesell
2007-03-21 17:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Post by Michael Wiktowy
Post by Timothy Murphy
The essential point was that the PictureBook
was very picky about boot devices - for example,
you could only boot (Windows or Linux) from their own PCMCIA-CD reader.
So you are saying the everyone with this hardware is having problems
but it couldn't be the hardware's fault ... hmmm ... odd sort of
logic.
The Fedora CD#1 would not boot on this machine.
How did it fail? Did it not read the bits off that particular piece of
plastic (which hardly sounds like the fault of the content) or did the
kernel load but the drivers failed to work with this machine? I do
kind-of remember a long discussion about boot issues on some earlier
fedora version though but I'm too lazy to go back and search for the
cause.
Post by Timothy Murphy
And I was unable to install Fedora-5 on an AMD Sempron machine
from CDs because of repeated CD reader failures.
Again, when I asked about this I found many people
had had the same experience.
Maybe that was the one. Does anyone know if there was a resolution or
if it was really cause by the way the image is created?
Post by Timothy Murphy
As I have explained (many times) when I have problems with Fedora CDs -
which is too often the case - I install from the hard disk.
If you have another machine, you can always download the isos there and
do an NFS install.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I certainly would not purchase a floppy drive for this purpose.
Copying the boot image to a USB flash drive would be the way to go these
days.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Hikaru Amano
2007-03-21 17:42:15 UTC
Permalink
just noticed something new on the net

http://niath.blogspot.com/2007/03/command-not-found.html

https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/command-not-found

guess like another +1 for ubuntu .. how about a port for yum from
Fedora?? or perhaps for apt-rpm - or maybe something distro
independent (we'll help other distros too - not just ourselves)..
although majority of us wont need it anyway, but still , thats
something nice to have .. (and yup, I know about yum provides)

/me still a n00b in programming ... /me loves distro independent stuff
.. /me wonder why some ubuntu (if not majority) people love to make
something that not distro independent .. yet they love to take stuff
created by others and brag that they have it first (AIGLX for example,
it was developed by Fedora in the first place) ..
--
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
??? ???? ????
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------
Mark Haney
2007-03-21 17:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
just noticed something new on the net
http://niath.blogspot.com/2007/03/command-not-found.html
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/command-not-found
You know, I'm ALL for making things easier to use, but seriously, where
does the line get drawn between 'easier to use' and 'we know what's best
for you'. I see this app as more of a way to potentially steer people
to certain apps/commands/etc that may or may not be the 'easiest to use'.

My $0.02.
--
Ita erat quando hic adveni.

Mark Haney
Sr. Systems Administrator
ERC Broadband
(828) 350-2415
Hikaru Amano
2007-03-21 18:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Haney
You know, I'm ALL for making things easier to use, but seriously, where
does the line get drawn between 'easier to use' and 'we know what's best
for you'. I see this app as more of a way to potentially steer people
to certain apps/commands/etc that may or may not be the 'easiest to use'.
My $0.02.
The potential i see in the bash plugin is that it will help new
Windows-to-Linux power users to learn the system quicker .. and those
power users are potential developers and contributors .. in the chase
to bring GNU/Linux to normal home users, power users/hobbyist should
not be forgotten ...

I was a power user on windows before, and I feel the plugin will help
new power-user/hobbyist converts to learn faster .. and hopefully,
started to contribute back to the community ..

normal home users mostly whiners .. but power users work their way out
- and learn! .. more power users = more bug testers , more people to
submit patch , more new ideas , more creative-playfulness! - thats
something that can benefit the community a lot ...

my 1c
--
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
??? ???? ????
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------
Arthur Pemberton
2007-03-21 19:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
just noticed something new on the net
http://niath.blogspot.com/2007/03/command-not-found.html
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/command-not-found
guess like another +1 for ubuntu .. how about a port for yum from
Fedora??
Yum is not tied to fedora - fedora isn't some arch or platform, it's
just a linux distro
Post by Hikaru Amano
or perhaps for apt-rpm - or maybe something distro
There is no such thing as a linux distro dependant software, it's all
linux underneath,
Post by Hikaru Amano
independent (we'll help other distros too - not just ourselves)..
although majority of us wont need it anyway, but still , thats
something nice to have .. (and yup, I know about yum provides)
/me still a n00b in programming ... /me loves distro independent stuff
.. /me wonder why some ubuntu (if not majority) people love to make
something that not distro independent .. yet they love to take stuff
created by others and brag that they have it first (AIGLX for example,
it was developed by Fedora in the first place) ..
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
Hikaru Amano
2007-03-21 19:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Hikaru Amano
just noticed something new on the net
http://niath.blogspot.com/2007/03/command-not-found.html
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/command-not-found
guess like another +1 for ubuntu .. how about a port for yum from
Fedora??
Yum is not tied to fedora - fedora isn't some arch or platform, it's
just a linux distro
yes i know .. what i meant was that perhaps someone from Fedora
community would do the porting .. instead of the plugin work with
debian based - specifically Ubuntu only ..
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Hikaru Amano
or perhaps for apt-rpm - or maybe something distro
There is no such thing as a linux distro dependant software, it's all
linux underneath,
yes its all linux underneath .. but the plugin doesnt interact with
the common ground .. it interact with apt specifically .. and apt is
commonly use by debian based distros .. we have apt-rpm, but gentoo
doesnt .. ifconfig for example is distro independent because it work
flawlessly with any distro considering it interact on the common
ground .. but system-config-network wont work on debian/gentoo unless
someone port it to work with debian'/gentoo environment ...

what i meant by distro independant is that the application can work
with any distro regardless what user tools or environment the distro
use with minimal hassle ... perhaps with only some config editing ...
--
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
??? ???? ????
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------
Andy Green
2007-03-21 20:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
what i meant by distro independant is that the application can work
with any distro regardless what user tools or environment the distro
use with minimal hassle ... perhaps with only some config editing ...
yum is intimately tied to rpm, so a Debian person could make the same
complaint about that, it's probably not a reasonable thing to complain
about either way. Packaging is an area that is part of what defines the
differences between the types of distro and the gulf is too wide to
interoperate over much (alien aside).

Be interesting to know the genesis of that idea and the implementation
of the feature though. This small feature has made a large positive PR
impact for Ubuntu on Digg today. Somehow that isn't happening for
Fedora. Maybe it is because it is Redhat (and now a second exclusionary
layer of packager-only mailing list) stops people feeling a sense of
ownership and inclusion... that they're willing to feel for another
corporate entity? Dunno.

-Andy

Andy Green
2007-03-16 15:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick
Post by jim tate
Is this just a excuse to go to ubuntu?
If so the OP is welcome to do so and I hope he finds what he is seeking.
I like using Fedora and there are those that like Ubuntu as I'm made all
Ah steady on, there have been exactly the problems that Timothy mentions
dogging previous versions of Fedora to my memory, at least two different
releases had problems getting burned for some people that did not seem
to be user error, and I do not recall reading any closure or even true
understanding of why, except some teethgrinding about the cdrecord guy.
It's not in itself insane to imagine that can be some well hidden
issue deep in the tools used to generate the ISOs.

Ubuntu currently has some mindshare (not least I see it from my logs)
but let's not have a denouncement and purge of Ubuntu touchers :-)
Gentoo also used to be the most awesome sparkling thing imaginable to a
lot of people -- and it had the same LED-eyed army of promoters.
Although I don't remember any gentoo gals making the logo with their
persons.

In the bigger picture it's okay if people are coming in on Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatever, they're still leaving a bad place and getting to a
good place.

-Andy
Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 10:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Green
In the bigger picture it's okay if people are coming in on Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatever, they're still leaving a bad place and getting to a
good place.
Except that you could wish the Ubuntu guys to stop bashing Red
Hat/Fedora/everything but Ubuntu. All the time they post comments around
the 'net asking why oh why anyone still uses Red Hat/Fedora/etc now that
Ubuntu exists, and it is the new messias of computing.

Regards
Ingemar
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-20 14:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Except that you could wish the Ubuntu guys to stop bashing Red
Hat/Fedora/everything but Ubuntu. All the time they post comments around
the 'net asking why oh why anyone still uses Red Hat/Fedora/etc now that
Ubuntu exists, and it is the new messias of computing.
Is that so?
I haven't seen _any_ posts along those lines.
I've seen people saying Ubuntu is marvelous,
and I've seen people saying Fedora is marvelous.
But I haven't seen anyone saying one is marvelous,
and the other is not.

Are you perhaps slightly paranoid on this subject?
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 16:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Is that so?
I haven't seen _any_ posts along those lines.
Not on this list, but in many other places.

Regards
Ingemar
Ric Moore
2007-03-20 16:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Andy Green
In the bigger picture it's okay if people are coming in on Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatever, they're still leaving a bad place and getting to a
good place.
Except that you could wish the Ubuntu guys to stop bashing Red
Hat/Fedora/everything but Ubuntu. All the time they post comments around
the 'net asking why oh why anyone still uses Red Hat/Fedora/etc now that
Ubuntu exists, and it is the new messias of computing.
That tactic has the reverse effect on me. I won't install Ubuntu,
because of all of the FC/RH bashing, for all the tea in China. Same
reason I would never install Debian. Too political and ideological. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
d.e.d.
2007-03-20 16:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
That tactic has the reverse effect on me. I won't install Ubuntu,
because of all of the FC/RH bashing, for all the tea in China. Same
reason I would never install Debian. Too political and ideological.
It did me as well Ric. Once Shuttleworth invaded Debian, I removed
Debian from all my machines. I was even more appalled by his letter to
the SuSE list stating that positions were available at Ubuntu should
any SuSE developers wish to leave SuSE. If Ubuntu floats peoples boats
and they are happy with it, cool. That's no reason to belittle others
choices of distributions though.
Post by Ric Moore
Ric
Regards,
Dan
Arthur Pemberton
2007-03-20 19:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Andy Green
In the bigger picture it's okay if people are coming in on Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatever, they're still leaving a bad place and getting to a
good place.
Except that you could wish the Ubuntu guys to stop bashing Red
Hat/Fedora/everything but Ubuntu. All the time they post comments around
the 'net asking why oh why anyone still uses Red Hat/Fedora/etc now that
Ubuntu exists, and it is the new messias of computing.
That tactic has the reverse effect on me. I won't install Ubuntu,
because of all of the FC/RH bashing, for all the tea in China. Same
reason I would never install Debian. Too political and ideological. Ric
Me too. I hear Ubuntu is good for newbies coming straight for windows.
But to this day I cannot in good conscience recommend it because of
all the idiotic bashing coming from the Ubuntu crowd. I believe it is
easier to explain software limitations than idiotic Ubuntu people.
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
alan
2007-03-20 20:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Me too. I hear Ubuntu is good for newbies coming straight for windows.
But to this day I cannot in good conscience recommend it because of
all the idiotic bashing coming from the Ubuntu crowd. I believe it is
easier to explain software limitations than idiotic Ubuntu people.
This also works:

http://xkcd.com/c178.html
--
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
- University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark
Kelly
2007-03-20 20:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Oh, for those who say they've never seen Ubuntu people insulting other
distros, here:

http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20070317032834650&title=What%27s+wrong+with+Fedora+is+that+it%27s+not+Ubuntu+%28eom%29&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=547350#c547361

Personally, I ultimately could not stand Debian's font system after a time.
It'd always seem to forget where the fonts are and basically kill X for good.
The X Font Server works much, much better.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Me too. I hear Ubuntu is good for newbies coming straight for windows.
But to this day I cannot in good conscience recommend it because of
all the idiotic bashing coming from the Ubuntu crowd. I believe it is
easier to explain software limitations than idiotic Ubuntu people.
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
--
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ - Get Firefox!
http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/ - Reclaim Your Inbox!

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-16 23:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim tate
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
Well you are definitely doing something wrong, I have downloaded a
number CD's, DVD's of fedora 5,6,7 test 1,2 and burn and run them with
no problems.
Is this just a excuse to go to ubuntu?
Not that it is important,
but in fact I bought a ThinkPad T43 running Ubuntu a month or so ago.
I ran it for a couple of weeks, after changing from Gnome to KDE.
My main observation (as I mentioned in a post here, I believe)
was that the two distributions - Ubuntu and Fedora -
were more or less indistinguishable,
and that the difference between KDE and Gnome on either
was far more significant.

I decided to move this machine over to Fedora
mainly because I am running Fedora on 6 other machines
(if I include a seriously sick Sony PictureBook),
and it seemed simpler to stick to one distribution.

I've always been very happy with RedHat and Fedora distributions,
but as I indicated I have serious misgivings
about the Fedora installation setup,
which have caused me a great deal of trouble on several different
types of machine.

I'm willing to put up with this because I'm happy with the final product,
and I regard installation as a one-off step on the way.
If I try to install from CD and it does not work,
I install from the hard disk.
This has usually worked without problem.
On a couple of occasions I still had problems,
in which case I managed to install a minimal system,
and then "yum updated" it over the net.

But the fact remains that I have had problems
with the CD reading part of the installation on almost all my machines.
I always start by running the CD Test on all the CDs,
which I assume should catch any problems.
(I've never had a failure with this.)

For those who want a detailed account of the problems,
the worst difficulty with FC-6 was on an Athlon64 machine
with the x86_64 distribution, which never installed or ran properly.
The i386 distribution installed OK,
and is running well on this machine.

The worst problem I have had was with two Sony PictureBooks,
using the standard Sony PCGA-CD51 CD reader;
I never succeeded in installing Fedora from CDs on these machines
(that amounts to 12 attempts in all).
In one case - I think it was Fedora 4 -
I had to install SuSE first,
and then use that to get the Fedora ISO images over by WiFi.
Post by jim tate
I hold Linux meeting once a month and the Ubuntu people are spreading
the FUD around that Fedora is a bleeding edge, unstable, distro, these
guys are beginning to sound like $MS people.
I never heard anything like this.
The only people I've heard going on about Fedora being bleeding edge
(an illusion of grandeur, in my view)
are Fedora people, excusing something wrong in the distribution,
which is wrong just because someone made a silly mistake.
Post by jim tate
Fedora 5, 6 , I have installed both and did updates on a number of
boxes, i386, X86_64 and had no problems.
This is the sort of response I usually get when mentioning problems
with the CD reader part of Fedora installation.
It seems to mean "I'm OK Jack, don't bother me with your problems".
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Ric Moore
2007-03-19 19:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim tate
Is this just a excuse to go to ubuntu?
I hold Linux meeting once a month and the Ubuntu people are spreading
the FUD around that Fedora is a bleeding edge, unstable, distro, these
guys are beginning to sound like $MS people.
No kidding, and it is sure getting really really old.
Post by jim tate
Fedora 5, 6 , I have installed both and did updates on a number of
boxes, i386, X86_64 and had no problems.
Fedora comes out with a kernel update more often the other distro's ,
that could cause problems.
After you have done your first update, after installation, don't update
the kernel anymore, put a line in /etc/yum.conf
exclude=kernel .
The kernel only needs to be updated if you have need for new drivers.
The only times I have ever had problems was with an upgrade. That is to
be expected at times, where there are enough major upgrades of packages
within the newer version. The Ubuntu disciples are becoming pretty
aggressive about coming into this discussion group with an agenda. It's
the poorest form of marketing to attack your competitor. Very very poor
form. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
Srikanth Konjarla
2007-03-16 15:12:00 UTC
Permalink
I have started running Linux exclusively (no multi boot with M$) on my
laptop 5 years ago and my first version of Linux was RH7. Since then, i
have upgraded to every subsequent version of RH and Fedora
(RH7.1,7.2,8,9,FC1,2,3,4,5,6) on my laptop and have changed the make and
model of laptop as well. I can say that, i *never* had a problem with
installation. Also, i run Fedora on my Desktop (which i have assembled)
and never had a problem with the installation. But, i am not saying that
others can't have issues with the installer of Fedora on a specific
hardware but, in general installation is very stable. I have come across
certain situations where the NIC driver was not part of the kernel and
had to download from the vendor site and install it to connect to the
internet. In this case, i have to make use of my other machine to
download and copy the driver to the new install.

Srikanth
Post by Stefan Held
Am 16.03.2007 13:38 Uhr schrieb "Timothy Murphy" unter
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
Yes, this is what is called a stable Version of Ubuntu.
Post by Timothy Murphy
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
Which is also a Stable Release of Knoppix
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
I downloaded both, DVD and CD Torrent of F7 Test 1 and 2.
Both worked like a charm on my machine.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
I did not answer but yes, it worked for me.
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
Why should it? Did you verify the sha1 summs of your download?
Did you test the same CD on a bunch of identical Machines/CD Drives?
Did you try to burn the CD with 4x speed only? Then test again?
John DeDourek
2007-03-19 15:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Held
Am 16.03.2007 13:38 Uhr schrieb "Timothy Murphy" unter
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
Why should it? Did you verify the sha1 summs of your download?
Did you test the same CD on a bunch of identical Machines/CD Drives?
Did you try to burn the CD with 4x speed only? Then test again?
In fact, I have had a significant difficulty with Fedora over the past
several years in
this regard. The Fedora kernels have apparently been fairly sensitive
to a few
models of CD drive, particularly older models. The problems here almost
always occur when installing on older machines.

I am currently trying to install Fedora Core 6 on such a machine, (an older
IBM NetVista) ant it reports that the install CD is not found, even though
it booted from that CD. The media is satisfactory on many other drives,
and has installed many machines. Just to make sure that the media
hadn't gone
bad, I mounted it on a newwer machine, mounted the iso image via the
loopback
device and did a recursive compare of all the files. The compare
completed without
error.

So, there are two possibilities:
--the media doesn't read on the CD drive in the older machine to a
sufficient degree
to complete the install
-- there is a bug in the particular set of drivers that Fedora Core 6
uses to read
the CD.
(I actually suspect that it is really a combination of both; the
particular drive gets
occasional read errors on the particular media, and the error recovery
in the
driver has a bug such that it doesn't recover. Thus the install works
only if
the CD drive reads the media perfectly).

I have tried the Fedora 6 respin. This definitely has updates. I do
not know if
the install kernel was updated however. In any case, this did not work on
the machine in question.

For what it's worth, the Fedora 7 Test 2 live CD does work in the same
machine.
This leads me to hope that Fedora 7 has corrected the problem.
Unfortunately,
Fedora 7 test 2 was released as a DVD image only. The machine in question
has only CD drives. So I can't attempt a CD isntall with test2. That
is unfortunate.
If the test2 CD isos had been released, we would know whether Fedora 7
corrects this install problem. (I suppose I could go back and test
"test 1", but
with test2 out, that has a low priority demand on my time.)
taharka
2007-03-16 14:18:52 UTC
Permalink
How do,
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
Same experience here :-( However, turns out it was a boneheaded mistake
on my part for not reading the "Release Notes" first. The PC needs 1Gb
of RAM in order to run the live CD. I have no PC here that meets that
spec. Do any of your PCs meet that spec?
Post by Timothy Murphy
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
taharka

Lexington, Kentucky U.S.A.
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-16 23:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by taharka
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
Same experience here :-( However, turns out it was a boneheaded mistake
on my part for not reading the "Release Notes" first. The PC needs 1Gb
of RAM in order to run the live CD. I have no PC here that meets that
spec. Do any of your PCs meet that spec?
No, I don't think any of my many machines have 1GB of RAM.
I confess that I didn't read the Release Notes - life is too short -
but if a live CD really expects the user to have this much RAM
there should be a large WARNING to that effect on the download page.
Also it shouldn't be too difficult for the distribution
to work out how much RAM the host machine has,
and explain gently why the CD is not going to boot.
So I would assign fault for this: me 20%, Fedora 80%.

Why does Fedora need much more RAM than Ubuntu, anyway?
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Hikaru Amano
2007-03-17 00:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Post by taharka
Post by Timothy Murphy
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
Same experience here :-( However, turns out it was a boneheaded mistake
on my part for not reading the "Release Notes" first. The PC needs 1Gb
of RAM in order to run the live CD. I have no PC here that meets that
spec. Do any of your PCs meet that spec?
No, I don't think any of my many machines have 1GB of RAM.
I confess that I didn't read the Release Notes - life is too short -
but if a live CD really expects the user to have this much RAM
there should be a large WARNING to that effect on the download page.
Also it shouldn't be too difficult for the distribution
to work out how much RAM the host machine has,
and explain gently why the CD is not going to boot.
So I would assign fault for this: me 20%, Fedora 80%.
Why does Fedora need much more RAM than Ubuntu, anyway?
The liveCD doesnt need 1GB RAM .. 256 works for me (actually on Qemu)
... you only need 1GB RAM if you want to load everything into RAM and
run it from there ..
--
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
??? ???? ????
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------
Michael Wiktowy
2007-03-16 15:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
I have had mostly success in booting the F7 Test LiveCD. I think it
didn't work with one machine of mine but worked in several others. I
was actually quite surprised that Compiz worked on a few.

They have done a good job so far AFAICT but obviously the job is not
done (that is what the "Test" means). Comparing stable releases to
test releases is unfair. What might make your posting less trolling
FUD and more useful is if you actually posted the specs of your
machines (including CD-ROM models) where if failed allowing the devs
in charge of that project to make it better and maybe make it work for
you in the future. You also might try reburning the CD and maybe doing
a media check before booting to it.

Generic "You suck and someone else is better" messages are rarely
helpful and rarely receive friendly responses. "You suck and here are
the specific details about how you suck" get a slightly better
response.

/Mike
Jonathan Berry
2007-03-17 01:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
Yesterday I downloaded and burnt the Ubuntu Live CD (6.06),
and it worked like perfectly on the 4 machines I tried it on.
The rather ancient version of Knoppix I have
also works perfectly on all the machines I have tried it on.
I downloaded and burnt the Fedora-7 Test Live CD some time ago,
and this does not boot on any machine I've tried it on.
"Fedora-7 Test Live CD"
Your problem is the word "Test" in there. Why do people expect
testing releases to work perfectly? How about comparing with the
Fedora Core 6 Live CD before bashing Fedora for not working.
Post by Timothy Murphy
I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had successfully booted from this CD,
but I only got advice on how to test the CD;
nobody replied that they had actually got it to work.
Did you try the test list, rather than here?
Post by Timothy Murphy
In my experience there is something basically wrong
with the CD reading part of Fedora CDs,
as many people report problems installing Fedora this way.
When I installed F7T1, I had to manually load a kernel module for it
to read the DVD. This was a known problem with the nv_sata (I think)
module not getting loaded automatically. What hardware did you test
this on?

Jonathan
Brian Porter
2007-03-17 15:36:29 UTC
Permalink
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.

While I've "tinkered" with Linux for many years (home-based firewalls,
personal SMTP servers, DNS, NTP, LAMP, MythTV e.t.c.), I still consider
myself fairly junior when it comes to Linux and Unix in general,
especially as a desktop. I'm an IT professional who has been stuck in
network, Windoze, WebSphere and WebLogic administration for 13+ years.
For my personal use, I have always had Fedora/Redhat running as I expect
to pursue Red Hat certification at some point.

I have a decent set of lab of machines at home: two AMD-64s, two AMD XPs
and a Pentium III. All the machines have a fairly broad set of hardware
(ATI, nVidia, 3Dfx, 3ware, e.t.c.) I recently tried Ubuntu 6.10's
desktop and server installations on my lab systems and was extremely
impressed. Ubuntu's installation is an absolute BREEZE compared to
Fedora Core 5/6. With Fedora, I've had installer problems with virtually
every single Fedora install (i.e. sometimes it works, sometimes it
doesn't, media checks fine and I don't change a single setting between
installs). On the other hand, Ubuntu 6.10 installed without a single
hitch on each and every machine on the first attempt. I am extremely
impressed!

I am very excited about Ubuntu as I now see the day I can fully wean my
extended family from Microsoft. I still use Fedora for my home "servers"
but I've got Ubuntu running so I can learn how to support it. As soon as
I feel comfortable with Ubuntu, I will be switching my family members
from Microsoft Windows.
--
-Brian
brian at miatar.org http:\\www.miatar.org\
Stefan Held
2007-03-17 16:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
Hi Brian,
Post by Brian Porter
I have a decent set of lab of machines at home: two AMD-64s, two AMD XPs
and a Pentium III. All the machines have a fairly broad set of hardware
(ATI, nVidia, 3Dfx, 3ware, e.t.c.) I recently tried Ubuntu 6.10's
desktop and server installations on my lab systems and was extremely
impressed. Ubuntu's installation is an absolute BREEZE compared to
Fedora Core 5/6. With Fedora, I've had installer problems with virtually
every single Fedora install (i.e. sometimes it works, sometimes it
doesn't, media checks fine and I don't change a single setting between
installs). On the other hand, Ubuntu 6.10 installed without a single
hitch on each and every machine on the first attempt. I am extremely
impressed!
Well. Ubuntu is also missing severall features right now which
Fedora/Redhat has included by default. (Selinux, Xen) Maybe your issues
are with these?
Post by Brian Porter
I am very excited about Ubuntu as I now see the day I can fully wean my
extended family from Microsoft. I still use Fedora for my home "servers"
but I've got Ubuntu running so I can learn how to support it. As soon as
I feel comfortable with Ubuntu, I will be switching my family members
from Microsoft Windows.
No rant, no hate, even not a but Fedora is better Email.

Just between the Two of us, what can Ubuntu provide what Fedora does not
have?

I have _personally_ the opinion that using a distribution is build on
the same fact as the discussion about vim and emacs.


1.) You know the Distribution since a few years.
You know the toolchain, you know where configs are.

This means you get things done very quickly.

2.) It is allways a thing about personal taste.
Some Users like it this or the other way. (Gnome & KDE)
(If you are a KDE Lover, in my opinion, Fedora is not the right
Choice for you. Others are happy with that)

I am in a position (i know Gnu/Linux and Unix a few years now) where it
is not easy for me to criticise anyone. You should do one task:

Try to build your own Linux from Scratch Version and try also to make it
distributable. If you try something like that you get a feeling what
awfull job it is to do that and how impressive good all of the
Distributions nowadays fullfill this task.


Just my 2 Cents.
Post by Brian Porter
--
-Brian
brian at miatar.org http:\\www.miatar.org\
--
Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes:
obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time,
IRCNet: Obi_Wan the second destroys the text.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG-Keyprint = EAF2 6A65 D102 F2DB 4970 2A67 455B 98F2 572C 3FA9
Kevin Kofler
2007-03-17 18:17:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Held
(If you are a KDE Lover, in my opinion, Fedora is not the right
Choice for you. Others are happy with that)
Huh? I've been using KDE on Fedora ever since Fedora exists in its current form
(i.e. FC1, and KDE on Red Hat Linux before that) and it works just fine. In
fact, Fedora is the way to go if you want the latest KDE, most distros ship
with a version and stay at that version until the next release, Fedora actually
updates KDE within a release. For example, FC6 got updated 3.5.4->3.5.5->3.5.6.
FC4 even got updated from 3.4.0 all the way to 3.5.3. There's also now a
Special Interest Group working on improving KDE in Fedora, lead by Rex Dieter,
the guy behind the kde-redhat project.

Kevin Kofler
Tin Tin
2007-03-17 16:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Brian Porter
2007-03-17 16:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Please explain.
--
-Brian
brian at miatar.org http:\\www.miatar.org\
Tin Tin
2007-03-17 17:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Porter
Post by Tin Tin
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Please explain.
I quote Fedora Project Leader Max Spevack:

"But ultimately for Fedora the goal is Free software. Including
support for proprietary drivers in our distribution would violate that
tenet, but we believe it is important enough that we don't compromise.
All distributions face this challenge, and it is at times a difficult
question to answer. But I am proud of the fact that Fedora's choice
has been consistently in favor of freedom in software.

By choosing not to ship any proprietary or binary drivers, Fedora does
differ from other distributions. Ubuntu is one example, as there is
very strong language about their commitment to Free and open source
software, right up until the line stating that they include
binary-only drivers on their CDs and in their repositories."
Les Mikesell
2007-03-17 17:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Given a choice between something that works and the freedom to fix
something that doesn't, I'd go with the working version knowing that it
in no way reduces my freedom to fix the broken version which will remain
available even if something better is included in a distribution.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Res
2007-03-17 21:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that means
even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to third party
repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my freedom, my freedom
to do what I want, play what I want, when I want, if I want to be dictated
to as to what I can can not have, I'll install winblows, even it can play
mp3's :)
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Chris Mohler
2007-03-17 21:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that means
even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to third party
repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my freedom, my freedom
to do what I want, play what I want, when I want, if I want to be dictated
to as to what I can can not have, I'll install winblows, even it can play
mp3's :)
Last I checked the 'Multiverse' (aka Non-Free) source *was* a third
party repo, and was not enabled by default. I didn't see any real
difference there.

Chris
Bobex Scores
2007-03-17 22:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Mohler
Post by Res
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my freedom than Ubuntu does.
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that means
even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to third party
repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my freedom, my freedom
to do what I want, play what I want, when I want, if I want to be dictated
to as to what I can can not have, I'll install winblows, even it can play
mp3's :)
Last I checked the 'Multiverse' (aka Non-Free) source *was* a third
party repo, and was not enabled by default. I didn't see any real
difference there.
Chris
Fedora Core 6 is more suitable for me I think, in my country it has more
fan using fedora. Yes ubuntu is great distro, but for me who has limited
internet access, it is difficult to get the other package, maybe if i
have unlimited internet access i prefer ubuntu. Fedora come with so many
package even we still need to download for ntfs mounting and mp3 codec
for xmms
Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 11:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that
means even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to
third party repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my
freedom, my freedom to do what I want, play what I want, when I want,
The reason why Fedora does not ship codecs for popular media formats such
as mp3 and mpeg is not ideological, but legal. Those formats are patented
in the United States, and shipping them anyway would expose Fedora and
Fedora's parent company Red Hat to greatly increased legal risks. Microsoft
just felt that risk, beging forced to hand over 1.2 billion dollars after a
court judgement. Also remember that knowingly infringing carries triple
damages.

Do you actually expect Red Hat to knowingly carry out a gross violation of
US law just to satisfy some whining users?

Regards
Ingemar
Res
2007-03-20 12:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Res
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that
means even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to
third party repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my
freedom, my freedom to do what I want, play what I want, when I want,
The reason why Fedora does not ship codecs for popular media formats such
as mp3 and mpeg is not ideological, but legal. Those formats are patented
in the United States, and shipping them anyway would expose Fedora and
Fedora's parent company Red Hat to greatly increased legal risks. Microsoft
just felt that risk, beging forced to hand over 1.2 billion dollars after a
court judgement. Also remember that knowingly infringing carries triple
damages.
The avg user does not give a shit about the politics of it, they just want
to do it!

this legal bullshit argument has been had out on this list so many times
ive lost count, the end of it is if we are to convert win users to linux,
forget fedora, because like it or not, they want to play there mp3's and
fedora does not allow that out of the box, remembering most win uses are
non technical savvy and wont want to go to hassle of qadding in this repo,
adn that repo to geet other stuff their win box currently does by default,
like 99% of other linux distros also do by default, if one doesnt do it by
default, they look elsewhere, thats the facts, I here it every day in my
attempt to convert, so I no longer recommend fedora.
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Hikaru Amano
2007-03-20 12:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
The avg user does not give a shit about the politics of it, they just want
to do it!
The law is still the law .. in some countries avg users dont care
about piracy, they just want to use it .. does that mean piracy is
okay??? no its not ..
Post by Res
this legal bullshit argument has been had out on this list so many times
ive lost count, the end of it is if we are to convert win users to linux,
forget fedora, because like it or not, they want to play there mp3's and
fedora does not allow that out of the box, remembering most win uses are
non technical savvy and wont want to go to hassle of qadding in this repo,
adn that repo to geet other stuff their win box currently does by default,
like 99% of other linux distros also do by default, if one doesnt do it by
default, they look elsewhere, thats the facts, I here it every day in my
attempt to convert, so I no longer recommend fedora.
wait till pungi/pilgrim/revisor finish , create your own spin with mp3
support .. just dont name it fedora .. and take responsibility for it
if you got a lawsuit because distributing mp3 decoders ..
--
-----------------------------------------------
regards
Hikaru
-----------------------------------------------
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru
??? ???? ????
Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS
ICT 2nd Year 1st Semester
mohd.izhar.firdaus at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com
Blog: http://kagesenshi.blogspot.com
-----------------------------------------------
Tin Tin
2007-03-20 13:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
The law is still the law .. in some countries avg users dont care
about piracy, they just want to use it .. does that mean piracy is
okay??? no its not ..
"Piracy" is not a good word to use. "Unauthorized copies" might be better.

I still remember hearing rms once talking about "the only thing worse
than using an unathorized copy is to use the original copy, because
the company is directly benefiting from it!"
Scott van Looy
2007-03-20 14:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Hikaru Amano
The law is still the law .. in some countries avg users dont care
about piracy, they just want to use it .. does that mean piracy is
okay??? no its not ..
"Piracy" is not a good word to use. "Unauthorized copies" might be better.
I still remember hearing rms once talking about "the only thing worse
than using an unathorized copy is to use the original copy, because
the company is directly benefiting from it!"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/owenblacker/412448717/

:D
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------

He who minds his own business is never unemployed.
Les Mikesell
2007-03-20 15:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Hikaru Amano
The law is still the law .. in some countries avg users dont care
about piracy, they just want to use it .. does that mean piracy is
okay??? no its not ..
"Piracy" is not a good word to use. "Unauthorized copies" might be better.
I still remember hearing rms once talking about "the only thing worse
than using an unathorized copy is to use the original copy, because
the company is directly benefiting from it!"
He has an odd opinion of companies that create nice things that you can
choose to purchase. The real problems are monopolies and
anti-competitive practices where there can be no competition to enhance
the value and variety of these choices.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Les Mikesell
2007-03-20 14:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
wait till pungi/pilgrim/revisor finish , create your own spin with mp3
support .. just dont name it fedora .. and take responsibility for it
if you got a lawsuit because distributing mp3 decoders ..
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Scott van Looy
2007-03-20 15:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Mikesell
Post by Hikaru Amano
wait till pungi/pilgrim/revisor finish , create your own spin with mp3
support .. just dont name it fedora .. and take responsibility for it
if you got a lawsuit because distributing mp3 decoders ..
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per seat
licence feee, afaik...
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------

TAPPING? You POLITICIANS! Don't you realize that the END of the "Wash
Cycle" is a TREASURED MOMENT for most people?!
Mikkel L. Ellertson
2007-03-20 16:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Les Mikesell
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per
seat licence feee, afaik...
They could always sell it like other closed source software. You can
sell commercial software that runs on Linux. You just can not use
GPLed code in your software. You can link to LGPL libraries...

Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
Les Mikesell
2007-03-20 16:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikkel L. Ellertson
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Les Mikesell
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per
seat licence feee, afaik...
They could always sell it like other closed source software.
Or they could give it away like they do the freely downloadable versions
for windows and the mac... They do those versions on the (correct)
assumption that even though it can be used without paying anything to
play and rip your own CDs, many users will choose to purchase music from
the itunes store and will buy ipods for the unique convenience that the
combination provides. For example, you can set up (free) subscriptions
to podcasts that are available on the itunes store and other places that
will automatically download new items when available with a smart
playlist that includes unplayed podcasts. When you sync the ipod it
will copy over new items and sync back the play counts. If you've also
set played items to be deleted, itunes will notice that you listened to
an item - whether on the ipod or played in itunes - and delete it on the
next refresh cycle as it checks for new material. So, with no effort
besides plugging in the USB connector you can always have a playlist of
fresh and interesting material on your ipod. Is there a free
alternative that can match this convenience?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Scott van Looy
2007-03-20 16:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikkel L. Ellertson
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Les Mikesell
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per
seat licence feee, afaik...
They could always sell it like other closed source software. You can
sell commercial software that runs on Linux. You just can not use
GPLed code in your software. You can link to LGPL libraries...
Which gets around fedora not being able to ship the code how?

:P
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------

Fremen add life to spice!
Mikkel L. Ellertson
2007-03-20 17:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Mikkel L. Ellertson
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Les Mikesell
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per
seat licence feee, afaik...
They could always sell it like other closed source software. You can
sell commercial software that runs on Linux. You just can not use
GPLed code in your software. You can link to LGPL libraries...
Which gets around fedora not being able to ship the code how?
Why would it have to be shipped with Fedora? Not all software you
use needs to be shipped with the distribution.

Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
Scott van Looy
2007-03-20 17:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikkel L. Ellertson
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Mikkel L. Ellertson
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Les Mikesell
Or, convince Apple they should release a Linux port of itunes...
Who would pay for it? The problem isn't that the mp3 codecs are patent
encumbered, they're that the people who own the patents charge a per
seat licence feee, afaik...
They could always sell it like other closed source software. You can
sell commercial software that runs on Linux. You just can not use
GPLed code in your software. You can link to LGPL libraries...
Which gets around fedora not being able to ship the code how?
Why would it have to be shipped with Fedora? Not all software you
use needs to be shipped with the distribution.
Coz that's why everyone's moaning? Or is it just for the fun of it?

IMHO...iTunes is a pile of fetid donkey's kidneys which I wouldn't touch
with a 90ft bargepole (if I could even lift one). Fedora is a free distro,
I'd prefer it if we stayed patent free instead of pandering to people's
whims in exchange for market share. :)

I love Fedora, as I loved Redhat before...it's always made the most sense
to me...I've tried Suse, Debian, Slackware, even lft...all are odd in some
ways...so I always come back ;)
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------

In Mexico we have a word for sushi: bait.
-- Josi Simon
Res
2007-03-20 22:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hikaru Amano
Post by Res
The avg user does not give a shit about the politics of it, they just want
to do it!
The law is still the law .. in some countries avg users dont care
'its the law' depends on our country.
Post by Hikaru Amano
wait till pungi/pilgrim/revisor finish , create your own spin with mp3
Why? I'd rather just recommend one of the other popular distros that have
it already, no need to re-invent the wheel.
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Gene Heskett
2007-03-20 20:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Res
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that
means even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to
third party repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my
freedom, my freedom to do what I want, play what I want, when I want,
The reason why Fedora does not ship codecs for popular media formats
such as mp3 and mpeg is not ideological, but legal. Those formats are
patented in the United States, and shipping them anyway would expose
Fedora and Fedora's parent company Red Hat to greatly increased legal
risks. Microsoft just felt that risk, beging forced to hand over 1.2
billion dollars after a court judgement. Also remember that knowingly
infringing carries triple damages.
The avg user does not give a shit about the politics of it, they just
want to do it!
this legal bullshit argument has been had out on this list so many times
ive lost count, the end of it is if we are to convert win users to
linux, forget fedora, because like it or not, they want to play there
mp3's and fedora does not allow that out of the box, remembering most
win uses are non technical savvy and wont want to go to hassle of
qadding in this repo, adn that repo to geet other stuff their win box
currently does by default, like 99% of other linux distros also do by
default, if one doesnt do it by default, they look elsewhere, thats the
facts, I here it every day in my attempt to convert, so I no longer
recommend fedora.
The facts are the facts, and your ranting about it here on this list is
not only unwelcome, it is to the wrong messenger. Take this BS to your
congress-critters. ONLY they can fix it. This list can do without the
rant. There are workarounds that google, legal to do so or not, will
lead you to. Use them.
Post by Res
--
Cheers
Res
Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q: What's the difference between a Mac and an Etch-a-Sketch?
A: You don't have to shake the Mac to clear the screen.
Res
2007-03-20 22:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
The facts are the facts, and your ranting about it here on this list is
not only unwelcome, it is to the wrong messenger. Take this BS to your
congress-critters. ONLY they can fix it. This list can do without the
congress... sorry means nothing in my country ;)
Post by Gene Heskett
rant. There are workarounds that google, legal to do so or not, will
lead you to. Use them.
I dont care if its unwelcome, I have been on this list since about day 2
or so of its inception, and there's one thing I know, theres too many rose
coloured glasses wearing fan bois around here, many who love to attack
those who dare have a difference of option to theirs or Fedoras/RHs.
I've been dealing with that type for 15 plus years on other lists and
newsgroups etc, I aint about to give in to these bully boys now just so
they can sit in there little tinny, it's rarely calm waters in
international oceans.


This was not my statement, my statement is recommending people who want to
move from windows, the clueless bunnies who want a working GUI, they are
the ones that I deal with and they are the ones I no longer recommend
fedora to for this reason (they just want it to work).

I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other
desktops to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as
of RH9 EOL).
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Scott van Looy
2007-03-20 22:57:47 UTC
Permalink
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or slackware
soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other desktops to
slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as of RH9 EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up
when you've upgraded it? :)

Ttfn,

Scott x
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------

I'm frequently appalled by the low regard you Earthmen have for life.
-- Spock, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2822.3
alan
2007-03-20 23:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other desktops
to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as of RH9
EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up when
you've upgraded it? :)
I don't know if I would call installing Slackware an "upgrade". I dumped
Slackware back in 1996. I looked at it last year and it had not changed a
whole lot since 1996.

Yes, I am old.
--
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
- University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark
Mikkel L. Ellertson
2007-03-20 23:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan
I don't know if I would call installing Slackware an "upgrade". I
dumped Slackware back in 1996. I looked at it last year and it had not
changed a whole lot since 1996.
Yes, I am old.
I seam to remember something about that - wasn't there a series of
floppies for each type of package? x# for X stuff, a# for
applications, n# for network stuff? I remember installing a BIG
stack of floppies to my 386 machine with 8 meg of RAM. (72 1 meg x 1
ICs...)

Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
Res
2007-03-21 01:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other desktops
to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as of RH9
EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up when
you've upgraded it? :)
Ttfn,
I could always stick around to annoy the shit out of the likes of you :)
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Aaron Konstam
2007-03-21 13:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other desktops
to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as of RH9
EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up when
you've upgraded it? :)
Ttfn,
I could always stick around to annoy the shit out of the likes of you :)
But why does annoying people give you such a positive feeling?
--
=======================================================================
Progress means replacing a theory that is wrong with one more subtly
wrong.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam at sbcglobal.net
Craig White
2007-03-21 17:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other desktops
to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as of RH9
EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up when
you've upgraded it? :)
Ttfn,
I could always stick around to annoy the shit out of the likes of you :)
----
I would hope that you strive for more lofty ambitions
--
Craig White <craig at tobyhouse.com>
Gene Heskett
2007-03-21 03:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott van Looy
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other
desktops to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers
as of RH9 EOL).
As this is a list for users of fedora, does that mean you might shut up
when you've upgraded it? :)
We can hope maybe...

In the meantime res, I'm no longer clicking on reply all for any of your
messages, I'm sick of the bounces. Fix your server.
Post by Scott van Looy
Ttfn,
Scott x
--
Scott van Looy - email:me at ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------
I'm frequently appalled by the low regard you Earthmen have for life.
-- Spock, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2822.3
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Life is like a tin of sardines.
We're, all of us, looking for the key.
-- Beyond the Fringe
Res
2007-03-21 05:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
We can hope maybe...
In the meantime res, I'm no longer clicking on reply all for any of your
messages, I'm sick of the bounces. Fix your server.
Nothing wrong with my servers, the fact your host is blocked because your
ISP cant get off its ass and do somthing about its spamming users is not
my problem.

And one should ask WHY you are replying to me, reply to the list, I dont
contact you directly, have no desire to.
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Chris
2007-03-21 11:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Gene Heskett
We can hope maybe...
In the meantime res, I'm no longer clicking on reply all for any of your
messages, I'm sick of the bounces. Fix your server.
Nothing wrong with my servers, the fact your host is blocked because
your ISP cant get off its ass and do somthing about its spamming users
is not
my problem.
And one should ask WHY you are replying to me, reply to the list, I dont
contact you directly, have no desire to.
A Google search on his address turned up this from '04...

"Re: GUMBY GRUB

* From: Res <res ausics net>
* To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list redhat com>
* Subject: Re: GUMBY GRUB
* Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:57:54 +1000 (EST)

*sigh* see my previous post, i dont care what the headers say, i dont
even read most the posts on here cause the signal to noise ratio is
excesive with ppl like you adding to it. I spose the days just prior to
xmas where this list was sending only half of everbodies posts was my
fault as well :) anyway i repeat, the care factor is non existant.
life goes on."
--
Best regards,
Chris

BOFH excuse #354:

Chewing gum on /dev/sd3c
Arthur Pemberton
2007-03-20 23:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
Post by Gene Heskett
The facts are the facts, and your ranting about it here on this list is
not only unwelcome, it is to the wrong messenger. Take this BS to your
congress-critters. ONLY they can fix it. This list can do without the
congress... sorry means nothing in my country ;)
I share that sentiment, but the ;) at the end of that statement does
the statement little justice.
Post by Res
Post by Gene Heskett
rant. There are workarounds that google, legal to do so or not, will
lead you to. Use them.
I dont care if its unwelcome
It is human courtesy to excuse one's self if they are unwelcome.
Post by Res
I have been on this list since about day 2
or so of its inception
Understand, that after you reach a certain level of unwantedness,
regardless of your age with any organization, you will be no longer
useful.
Post by Res
and there's one thing I know, theres too many rose
coloured glasses wearing fan bois around here
That in itself is not a bad thing, fan boys tend to be the one who do
the works also.
Post by Res
many who love to attack
those who dare have a difference of option to theirs or Fedoras/RHs.
I believe you are misconstruing "attacking people who slander" with
"attacking those who share different opinions". While I've found the
majority of this thread to be too disgusting to follow, I do not
believe I have noticed much of the later as of yet.
Post by Res
I've been dealing with that type for 15 plus years on other lists and
newsgroups etc, I aint about to give in to these bully boys now just so
they can sit in there little tinny, it's rarely calm waters in
international oceans.
The Linux world needs a "Switzerland" as much as does the real world.
While you cannot begin to understand how I detest this American rule
domination, and that I detest that such a beautiful thing such as
Fedora must fall victim to it, it is what it is. And while I would
like to invite RedHat to transfer their headquarters to my country and
free Fedora to utilize existing technologies now, I do not see RedHat
accepting my offer.

Furthermore, not all of Fedora's software restrictions are from a
purely legal standpoint. Some just make sense - any distro can go with
what is easiest for users, but Fedora is taking a different road, and
doing what is best for technology - I think Windows, from an
engineering standpoint, is proof that doing what is easiest for users
is not what is best for technology.
Post by Res
This was not my statement, my statement is recommending people who want to
move from windows, the clueless bunnies who want a working GUI, they are
the ones that I deal with and they are the ones I no longer recommend
fedora to for this reason (they just want it to work).
Then that is purely up to you. You are the one doing the
recommendation,and you are the one setting your criteria. You are
making that decision based on aspects of Fedora which are not
negatives, just differences.
Post by Res
I have only one fedora box left, its an FC1, and it'll be ubuntu or
slackware soon depending on how F7 turns out, I moved all my other
desktops to slackware recently (since I only use slackware on servers as
of RH9 EOL).
That is all fine and good. I can only hope you are contributing back
in someway, you seem to be enjoying the free software.

I too have my hesitations about recommending Fedora to Linux virgins.
The fact of the matter is that the Linux virgin is not high on
Fedora's target objectives. One may argue that it should be, but that
would be a totally different argument.

And as a non-American, who shares your distaste of global Americanized
policies, I ask that you temper your self and not make us
non-Americans seem like pompous jackasses on this, a public, indexable
list.

Thank you.
Post by Res
--
Cheers
Res
Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list at redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
Res
2007-03-21 05:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Res
congress... sorry means nothing in my country ;)
I share that sentiment, but the ;) at the end of that statement does
the statement little justice.
I just think its funny when everyone else expects us to think its yankie
way or no way.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Res
I dont care if its unwelcome
It is human courtesy to excuse one's self if they are unwelcome.
Right, so I could reply to all the other trolls and fanbois saying that?
you know the kind of responses that would bring don't you :)
The only person around ehre who has any right to say i'm not welcome is
Bill N, and he can simply unsubscribe me when he's ready to do that.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Res
and there's one thing I know, theres too many rose
coloured glasses wearing fan bois around here
That in itself is not a bad thing, fan boys tend to be the one who do
the works also.
they also tend to be trolls as well, in fact more so trolls than do'ers
Post by Arthur Pemberton
Post by Res
many who love to attack
those who dare have a difference of option to theirs or Fedoras/RHs.
I believe you are misconstruing "attacking people who slander" with
"attacking those who share different opinions". While I've found the
majority of this thread to be too disgusting to follow, I do not
believe I have noticed much of the later as of yet.
It means anyone who the fanbois disagree with, are just verballed in any
way shape or form.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
The Linux world needs a "Switzerland" as much as does the real world.
While you cannot begin to understand how I detest this American rule
domination, and that I detest that such a beautiful thing such as
Fedora must fall victim to it, it is what it is. And while I would
like to invite RedHat to transfer their headquarters to my country and
free Fedora to utilize existing technologies now, I do not see RedHat
accepting my offer.
Agreed
Post by Arthur Pemberton
purely legal standpoint. Some just make sense - any distro can go with
what is easiest for users, but Fedora is taking a different road, and
doing what is best for technology - I think Windows, from an
Oh no dont involve that 'bleeding edge' again :)
cause it only happens when it suites them.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
engineering standpoint, is proof that doing what is easiest for users
is not what is best for technology.
All other distros cant be wrong however as well
But thats the good thing about Linux, we have choices.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
making that decision based on aspects of Fedora which are not
negatives, just differences.
exactly
Post by Arthur Pemberton
That is all fine and good. I can only hope you are contributing back
in someway, you seem to be enjoying the free software.
I do, thast teh funny thing, nobody in here actually knows anything about
me or what I do, much the same goes for everyone in here.

I am not a chest beater, I am silent acheiver, and are very happy that
way.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
I too have my hesitations about recommending Fedora to Linux virgins.
The fact of the matter is that the Linux virgin is not high on
Fedora's target objectives. One may argue that it should be, but that
would be a totally different argument.
That is in part this debate is about though.
Post by Arthur Pemberton
And as a non-American, who shares your distaste of global Americanized
policies, I ask that you temper your self and not make us
non-Americans seem like pompous jackasses on this, a public, indexable
list.
We cant do any worse then they already do.
Again, what do people do when they dont like someone elses opinion and
want them to go away, they can contact Bill Nottingham and ask him to
review my posts and whatever take action he sees fit.
I have no problems with that, since I spend little time on this list now
days.
--
Cheers
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Jim Cornette
2007-03-21 11:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Res wrote:
A small request! Can you update the score on each reply? At least
something will get resolved knowing the replies from each side.

Jim
--
I hear what you're saying but I just don't care.
Steve Searle
2007-03-21 19:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Res
I am not a chest beater, I am silent acheiver, and are very happy that
way.
I don't know what an acheiver is, but you're not a silent anything -
unfortunately.
Ed Greshko
2007-03-20 22:46:04 UTC
Permalink
*YAWN*......

Man, what a nightmare I just had. I dreamed about this silly circular
argument arose up from the dead in a new body.

Accckkk....it wasn't a dream!

Time to hide under the covers again.
Jimmy Bradley
2007-03-21 05:12:55 UTC
Permalink
So go ahead and run Ubuntu, and just shut up, will ya. I haven't
heard of you complaining about some one holding a gun to your head, and
trying to force you to run Fedora. Like I said, I run 5 machines, and
each one has a different distro on it. I'll admit, that one of them has
Ubuntu loaded on it, but it was because that distro recognized all the
hardware that I used in that particular machine.
We all know you like Ubuntu, you don't have to keep telling us.

Jim
Post by Res
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Res
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that
means even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to
third party repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my
freedom, my freedom to do what I want, play what I want, when I want,
The reason why Fedora does not ship codecs for popular media formats such
as mp3 and mpeg is not ideological, but legal. Those formats are patented
in the United States, and shipping them anyway would expose Fedora and
Fedora's parent company Red Hat to greatly increased legal risks. Microsoft
just felt that risk, beging forced to hand over 1.2 billion dollars after a
court judgement. Also remember that knowingly infringing carries triple
damages.
The avg user does not give a shit about the politics of it, they just want
to do it!
this legal bullshit argument has been had out on this list so many times
ive lost count, the end of it is if we are to convert win users to linux,
forget fedora, because like it or not, they want to play there mp3's and
fedora does not allow that out of the box, remembering most win uses are
non technical savvy and wont want to go to hassle of qadding in this repo,
adn that repo to geet other stuff their win box currently does by default,
like 99% of other linux distros also do by default, if one doesnt do it by
default, they look elsewhere, thats the facts, I here it every day in my
attempt to convert, so I no longer recommend fedora.
--
Cheers
Res
Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
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Res
2007-03-21 05:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimmy Bradley
So go ahead and run Ubuntu, and just shut up, will ya. I haven't
heard of you complaining about some one holding a gun to your head, and
*yawn*

I'm as much welcome to my opinion as anyone else around here is, just
because it doesnt fall into your fanboi line, dont expect me to change.
cause it aint happenin ANYTIME soon kido


--
Regards
Res


Let Novell known what you think of their back door deal with the devil.
Sign the petition today: http://techp.org/p/1/
Jimmy Bradley
2007-03-20 12:10:09 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what kind of agreement Mandriva/Mandrake has, but their
distro will play MP3 files. You still have to download and install
libdvdcss in order to play dvd's though. I run a number of different
distros on my machines. 5 machines, five different distros, and each one
has it's good points and bad points. I have yet to find a distro that is
totally perfect.
just my 2cents worth
Jim
Post by Ingemar Nilsson
Post by Res
Really? Thats why Ubuntu will let me do *anything* I want, and that
means even play mp3's anytime I damned well want without going to
third party repos, I think I know which distro has respect for my
freedom, my freedom to do what I want, play what I want, when I want,
The reason why Fedora does not ship codecs for popular media formats such
as mp3 and mpeg is not ideological, but legal. Those formats are patented
in the United States, and shipping them anyway would expose Fedora and
Fedora's parent company Red Hat to greatly increased legal risks. Microsoft
just felt that risk, beging forced to hand over 1.2 billion dollars after a
court judgement. Also remember that knowingly infringing carries triple
damages.
Do you actually expect Red Hat to knowingly carry out a gross violation of
US law just to satisfy some whining users?
Regards
Ingemar
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David Jansen
2007-03-20 17:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimmy Bradley
I don't know what kind of agreement Mandriva/Mandrake has, but their
distro will play MP3 files. You still have to download and install
libdvdcss in order to play dvd's though. I run a number of different
distros on my machines. 5 machines, five different distros, and each one
has it's good points and bad points. I have yet to find a distro that is
totally perfect.
just my 2cents worth
Jim
The main difference here is that Mandriva is not based in the USA so US
patent law doesn't come into view immediately. They may still get sued
for allowing people in the USA to download their software, but this is
less likely than the danger to RedHat, being an US based company.
Then again, I haven't used Mandriva in years (actually, it was mandrake
back then), so I'm not even sure if it really includes mp3 support out
of the box.
In Ubuntu, you will have to anable the "multiverse" (non-free)
repository yourself, that way the people behind Ubuntu think they ensure
they are not to be held accountable for the legality of the software
installed through that chhannel.
And yes, that is slightly easier than figuring out how to do the same
thing in Fedora, since the fedora configuration files, release notes and
official documents do not mention repositories such as Livna or Freshrpms
Apparently the RedHat lawyers think that even providing a link to a site
that offers software that might not be legal in the USA, may cause
problems for RedHat. Weird perhaps, but all the weirdness is legal, not
technical.

David Jansen
Todd Zullinger
2007-03-20 17:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Jansen
Apparently the RedHat lawyers think that even providing a link to a
site that offers software that might not be legal in the USA, may
cause problems for RedHat. Weird perhaps, but all the weirdness is
legal, not technical.
Not weird[1]. It's called contributory infringement and the 2600 case
involving DeCSS upheld this very thing[2]. The RedHat legal folks are
being quite prudent.

[1] Well okay, living in a supposedly free country where the legal
system has been so perverted that free speech can be curtailed via
this and many other means could be called weird (by those not familiar
with more appropriate terms like tyrannical :).

[2] See the legal docs at http://www.2600.com/dvd/docs/
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
May your sun be blown out like a candle
May your sea burn like tar
May your sky be rolled up like a scroll
May your blue moon drip with blood

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Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 11:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Porter
I can see why Ubuntu is gaining popularity.
I recently tried Ubuntu
6.10's desktop and server installations on my lab systems and was
extremely impressed. Ubuntu's installation is an absolute BREEZE
compared to Fedora Core 5/6. With Fedora, I've had installer problems
with virtually every single Fedora install
Quite a lot of people have the opposite experience. The Ubuntu install disc
hangs on kernel boot, requiring a load of kernel parameters such as noacpi,
noapic, nowhatever to even boot.

I tried the supposedly stable Ubuntu 6.06 LTS that they sent via ShipIt,
and it froze during kernel boot. Not only on one machine, but on all
machines that I tried it on. While Fedora always worked. As you can see, I
would rather be unimpressed at the QA of Ubuntu, and impressed with Fedora
for the same reason.

It's nice that Ubuntu works for you. It doesn't work for everyone though,
just like Fedora. The average level of impression should be about the
same.

Regards
Ingemar
Antonio Olivares
2007-03-17 18:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Brian Porter
Post by Tin Tin
As for me, Fedora has better respect for my
freedom than Ubuntu does.
Post by Brian Porter
Please explain.
"But ultimately for Fedora the goal is Free
software. Including
support for proprietary drivers in our distribution
would violate that
tenet, but we believe it is important enough that we
don't compromise.
All distributions face this challenge, and it is at
times a difficult
question to answer. But I am proud of the fact that
Fedora's choice
has been consistently in favor of freedom in
software.
By choosing not to ship any proprietary or binary
drivers, Fedora does
differ from other distributions. Ubuntu is one
example, as there is
very strong language about their commitment to Free
and open source
software, right up until the line stating that they
include
binary-only drivers on their CDs and in their
repositories."
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Well said! Fedora is commited to Free Software and
will not put itself and its users into problems. If
the user wants to add things, it is up to the user.

Also, on a side note. Linux Mint and *BuntuSpire have
Ubuntu as a base and include what Ubuntu doesn't
should not they be a little bit ahead of Ubuntu. Like
if you give Ubuntu 1 and Fedora 0, then

Linux Mint 2
Ubuntu 1

Freespire 2
Ubuntu 1

If the score is still 1-0, going into the 90th minute
with Ubuntu 1, Fedora 0, the coach sends the Fedora
goalie on a corner and he scores the goal to tie the
score(just like in the Champions League a team was
losing 3-2 and sent the goalie who scored and tied it
up at 3-3. Went into overtime and his team scored
again for the win)then it is Ubuntu 1, Fedora 1. We
need to go into Overtime way OT, possibly penalty
kicks to decide the score.

Regards,

Antonio



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Paul Osunero
2007-03-17 18:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Olivares
Also, on a side note. Linux Mint and *BuntuSpire have
Ubuntu as a base and include what Ubuntu doesn't
should not they be a little bit ahead of Ubuntu.
Ubuntu does get CNR pretty soon you know... so they get completely legal
codecs soon.
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Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 11:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Osunero
Ubuntu does get CNR pretty soon you know... so they get completely legal
codecs soon.
CNR isn't required to get legal codecs:

http://www.fluendo.com/

Regards
Ingemar
Tin Tin
2007-03-17 18:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Olivares
Linux Mint 2
Ubuntu 1
Freespire 2
Ubuntu 1
If the goals are counted purely in a technical sense (ie. usability),
then allow me to add:

Linspire 100
Ubuntu 1



Regards
TT
Les Mikesell
2007-03-17 19:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Antonio Olivares
Linux Mint 2
Ubuntu 1
Freespire 2
Ubuntu 1
If the goals are counted purely in a technical sense (ie. usability),
Linspire 100
Ubuntu 1
All distros are probably 90% the same content once they get installed.
Is there a matrix somewhere with checklists of the differences?
Mephis looks interesting too but there are too many to try them all -
and a lot of the variation is just a matter of the app versions
available due to release timing.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
Antonio Olivares
2007-03-17 19:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Tin Tin
Post by Antonio Olivares
Linux Mint 2
Ubuntu 1
Freespire 2
Ubuntu 1
If the goals are counted purely in a technical
sense (ie. usability),
Post by Tin Tin
Linspire 100
Ubuntu 1
All distros are probably 90% the same content once
they get installed.
Is there a matrix somewhere with checklists of the
differences?
There are Distro choosers for instance,

http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Choosing_a_Linux_distribution

http://reallylinux.com/docs/choosinglinux.shtml

There is also Distrowatch.

http://distrowatch.com/
Post by Tin Tin
Mephis looks interesting too but there are too many
to try them all -
and a lot of the variation is just a matter of the
app versions
available due to release timing.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell at gmail.com
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
I bet that most of us are familiar with Fedora and
prefer it to most of the others. The ones who
complain about it, prefer some of things that the
others are doing, but in the end Fedora is installed
and lives in our computer's hard drives in whichever
combinations possible, dual/triple boot, etc. The
others might be good as well, but Fedora in the end is
the best one, at least for me.

Regards,

Antonio



____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
Timothy Murphy
2007-03-17 20:13:13 UTC
Permalink
The others might be good as well, but Fedora in the end is
the best one, at least for me.
It may be the best, but it can still be improved.
It is sad that my suggestion (as OP) that
Anaconda might be less than perfect
was met by screams of outrage
and suggestions that I must be a mole for another distribution.

Anaconda is really pretty bad, in my opinion -
eg its love for the dreadful DiskDruid -
I'd give it beta minus if I were feeling generous.
It's easily the worst thing about Fedora.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
Gene Heskett
2007-03-17 20:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
The others might be good as well, but Fedora in the end is
the best one, at least for me.
It may be the best, but it can still be improved.
It is sad that my suggestion (as OP) that
Anaconda might be less than perfect
was met by screams of outrage
and suggestions that I must be a mole for another distribution.
Anaconda is really pretty bad, in my opinion -
eg its love for the dreadful DiskDruid -
I'd give it beta minus if I were feeling generous.
It's easily the worst thing about Fedora.
I'll confirm that, this DD way or hit the road, Jack, for another distro
is something I've screamed about on this list since they switched many
years ago, and now someone has thrown another can of gasoline on the
embers.

DD is an arrogant POS, something one expects to find in an M$ install. To
illustrate, I have a 10GB partition on /dev/hdd2, precisely so I DO have
a log in the event /dev/hda turns read-only. But if I actually want it
there, I've got to shut down all services, rsync to it from the
existing /var, edit my fstab to move it and reboot.

Then the problem is, how to I recover the nearly 6GB of space its using on
the LVM2 managed volume? It sounds as if maybe I should mount it to a
new /mnt/hda/var directory before fstab mounts /dev/hdd2 as /var but I'm
not sure if I can think straight enough to pull that off, or if LVM2 will
let me. Maybe mount the whole LVM2 volume to a separate mountpoint? I
dunno for sure.

Once the move is done, the system is happier than a pig in a deep mudhole,
so why the he!! won't DD just let me do it?

Somebody who knows why, please explain that to me in not more than 3
syllable words. I want to make sure I get it right.
Post by Timothy Murphy
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
A classic is something that everyone wants to have read
and nobody wants to read.
-- Mark Twain, "The Disappearance of Literature"
Dan
2007-03-18 18:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
The others might be good as well, but Fedora in the end is
the best one, at least for me.
It may be the best, but it can still be improved.
It is sad that my suggestion (as OP) that
Anaconda might be less than perfect
was met by screams of outrage
and suggestions that I must be a mole for another distribution.
Anaconda is really pretty bad, in my opinion -
eg its love for the dreadful DiskDruid -
I'd give it beta minus if I were feeling generous.
It's easily the worst thing about Fedora.
I agree here. With FC6 on both my laptop (Wireless, ATI, power
management) and desktop (Everything on dmraid0 drives!) the SINGULAR
ISSUE I had was installation. Past that, I don't think I've had a single
problem more serious than retarded video drivers (which I can't really
do anything about).
-Dan
Arthur Pemberton
2007-03-18 22:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Timothy Murphy
The others might be good as well, but Fedora in the end is
the best one, at least for me.
It may be the best, but it can still be improved.
It is sad that my suggestion (as OP) that
Anaconda might be less than perfect
was met by screams of outrage
and suggestions that I must be a mole for another distribution.
Anaconda is really pretty bad, in my opinion -
eg its love for the dreadful DiskDruid -
I'd give it beta minus if I were feeling generous.
It's easily the worst thing about Fedora.
I agree here. With FC6 on both my laptop (Wireless, ATI, power
management) and desktop (Everything on dmraid0 drives!) the SINGULAR
ISSUE I had was installation. Past that, I don't think I've had a single
problem more serious than retarded video drivers (which I can't really
do anything about).
-Dan
One can only hope that you guys are reporting this issues so others
need not suffer through it, esp. baring in mind that the Fedora devs
have a limited sub set of hardware configurations on which to use
themselves.
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
Ingemar Nilsson
2007-03-20 11:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Murphy
It is sad that my suggestion (as OP) that
Anaconda might be less than perfect
was met by screams of outrage
and suggestions that I must be a mole for another distribution.
What screams of outrage? You compared a test release of Fedora with stable
releases of other distros, did you expect nobody would mention that such a
comparison is flawed?

MVH
Ingemar
PDC-Staff
lists
2007-03-20 12:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I am trying to setup my fedora box with cvs server to be able to
connect it via pserver. This is what I am getting as error trying to
perform any cvs

cvs ["whatevercommand" aborted]: connect to [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]:2401
failed: Connection refused

In the /etc/xinetd.d/ folder I have a file called cvs:

service cvspserver
{
disable = no
port = 2401
socket_type = stream
protocol = tcp
wait = no
user = root
passenv = PATH
server = /usr/bin/cvs
env = HOME=/var/cvs
server_args = -f --allow-root=/var/cvs pserver
# bind = 127.0.0.1
}

And in the /etc/hosts.allow I added the line:

cvs: ALL:ALLOW

And using the system-config-security-tui tool I allow:

SSH
WWW (HTTP)
Secure WWW (HTTPS)
and otherports: cvspserver:tcp (same as 2401)

Anything else I need to be able to connect to the the cvs using
pserver from a remote computer. From that computer I can setup a
regular ssh connection without problem. I have tried to restart all
services and rebooted the machine as well :(

Anything I am missing out here?

Best regards,
Peter Lauri
Aaron Konstam
2007-03-20 15:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by lists
Hi,
I am trying to setup my fedora box with cvs server to be able to
connect it via pserver. This is what I am getting as error trying to
perform any cvs
cvs ["whatevercommand" aborted]: connect to [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]:2401
failed: Connection refused
service cvspserver
{
disable = no
port = 2401
socket_type = stream
protocol = tcp
wait = no
user = root
passenv = PATH
server = /usr/bin/cvs
env = HOME=/var/cvs
server_args = -f --allow-root=/var/cvs pserver
# bind = 127.0.0.1
}
cvs: ALL:ALLOW
The above seems wrong. The ALLOW has no purpose in an hosts.allow file.
cvs: All
seems the correct form.
Post by lists
SSH
WWW (HTTP)
Secure WWW (HTTPS)
and otherports: cvspserver:tcp (same as 2401)
Anything else I need to be able to connect to the the cvs using
pserver from a remote computer. From that computer I can setup a
regular ssh connection without problem. I have tried to restart all
services and rebooted the machine as well :(
Anything I am missing out here?
Best regards,
Peter Lauri
--
=======================================================================
"If you'll excuse me a minute, I'm going to have a cup of coffee." -
broadcast from Apollo 11's LEM, "Eagle", to Johnson Space Center,
Houston July 20, 1969, 7:27 P.M.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam at sbcglobal.net
Steve Searle
2007-03-20 20:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Please don't hijack threads.
James Kaufman
2007-03-20 20:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by lists
Hi,
I am trying to setup my fedora box with cvs server to be able to
connect it via pserver. This is what I am getting as error trying to
perform any cvs
cvs ["whatevercommand" aborted]: connect to [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]:2401
failed: Connection refused
Anything I am missing out here?
Best regards,
Peter Lauri
Firewall?
--
Jim Kaufman
Linux Evangelist
public key 0x6D802619
CCNA, CISSP# 65668
Peter Lauri
2007-03-20 23:37:31 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-list-
bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Konstam
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:17 PM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: cvs connection problems
Post by lists
Hi,
I am trying to setup my fedora box with cvs server to be able to
connect it via pserver. This is what I am getting as error trying to
perform any cvs
cvs ["whatevercommand" aborted]: connect to [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]:2401
failed: Connection refused
service cvspserver
{
disable = no
port = 2401
socket_type = stream
protocol = tcp
wait = no
user = root
passenv = PATH
server = /usr/bin/cvs
env = HOME=/var/cvs
server_args = -f --allow-root=/var/cvs pserver
# bind = 127.0.0.1
}
cvs: ALL:ALLOW
The above seems wrong. The ALLOW has no purpose in an hosts.allow file.
cvs: All
seems the correct form.
[Peter Lauri - DWS Asia]

I changed what you indicated, but still it did not work. I don't know if
this is a cvs question or Linux general question. Because it is a connection
refused I think it is Linux related, but I might be wrong?
Post by lists
SSH
WWW (HTTP)
Secure WWW (HTTPS)
and otherports: cvspserver:tcp (same as 2401)
Anything else I need to be able to connect to the the cvs using
pserver from a remote computer. From that computer I can setup a
regular ssh connection without problem. I have tried to restart all
services and rebooted the machine as well :(
Anything I am missing out here?
Best regards,
Peter Lauri
--
=======================================================================
"If you'll excuse me a minute, I'm going to have a cup of coffee." -
broadcast from Apollo 11's LEM, "Eagle", to Johnson Space Center,
Houston July 20, 1969, 7:27 P.M.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam at sbcglobal.net
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list at redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
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