Honest Questions -- Trying to decide on version of linux/os

[bruce]

Hi.

In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a
blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the
"work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud
VM..

At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop --
12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.

I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to
be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin
that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given
that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!

So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.

Thanks
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[Terry Polzin]

Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability. Another
consideration will be your desktop manager. As some use more resources than
others. My opinion, the simpler the better.

Post by bruce
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a
blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the
"work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud
VM..
At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop --
12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.
I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to
be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin
that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given
that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
Thanks
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[Dave Ihnat]

Post by Terry Polzin
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.

Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December;
lessee...here's an article:

https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-hat-dropped/

I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but
the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.

Cheers,

[Bill Oliver]

Post by Dave Ihnat

Post by Terry Polzin
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.

Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December;

The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky
Linux:

https://news.itsfoss.com/rocky-linux-announcement/

billo


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[Eddie O'Connor]

I've actually.made the move to a combination of Rocky Linux and Alma
Linux...theyre both suitable to the tasks at hand!





EGO II

Post by Bill Oliver

Post by Dave Ihnat

Post by Terry Polzin
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.

Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December;

The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky
https://news.itsfoss.com/rocky-linux-announcement/
billo
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[Dave Ihnat]

Post by Bill Oliver
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky
https://news.itsfoss.com/rocky-linux-announcement/

Yeah, there was discussion of a couple of fork projects planned back in
December. The downsides are twofold, that I see--first, this is no longer
an "official" RedHat distro. And secondly, at this time it's very much a
work in progress, and will be for a while (as will any other fork). It
remains to be seen if it, or any other fork, is successful. And if there
are others, who will win as "the best".

Cheers,

[Gordon Messmer]

Post by Bill Oliver
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky

Rocky Linux was created by a former CentOS developer (one of the
founders).  However, I'm not aware of any current developers moving to
other rebuilds.  Those developers are now working on CentOS Stream.

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[Tom Horsley]

Well, from these responses I can deduce one thing for sure:

Whatever CentOS is these days, their press releases were not
very clear about it :-).
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[Bill Oliver]

Post by Gordon Messmer

Post by Bill Oliver
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky

Rocky Linux was created by a former CentOS developer (one of the
founders). However, I'm not aware of any current developers moving
to
other rebuilds. Those developers are now working on CentOS Stream.

Yeah, it all seems kind of up in the air to me. I run CentOS on one of
my websites, and am a bit concerned about what I'm going to do when end
of life comes.

I' kind of waiting to see what FermiLabs does. They sort of dropped
Scientific Linux as a variant of RHEL in favor of CentOS and then were
suprised when CentOS made the change. As far as I can tell, they are
still deciding what to do. Whichever way the Scientific Linux people
jump, it will probably be associated with some stability.

billo
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[Roger Heflin]

They dropped "releases". What it is now appears to be a continuous stream
of rolling updates with no defined 7.9 release, just a stream.

For a stable OS I am not sure that is any better or worse than releases.

With fedora changing major package versions it might cause chaos, but it
probably would not be that much worse.

I sometimes hold off updating until I am 2 versions out and will say run on
32 for a year and when it goes out of support go 32->33 and 33->34 quickly,
and then stay on 34 for a while.

On the original question:
If you want/need cutting edge libraries and tools for your development,
then you need to use fedora or something similar.
If you are ok with potentially using a 5 year old patched library and/or
compiler and/or tools with none of the new features then go with one of the
enterprise type distributions.

If you attempt to make the enterprise cutting edge you end up doing a lot
of work to install extra libraries in separate locations so that your
enterprise OS still functions with the expected libraries. Even if you do
this right bringing down and installing the newer tools is enough work that
you should just use fedora as that should have better resources to ask
questions.

Post by Dave Ihnat

Post by Terry Polzin
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.

Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December;
https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-hat-dropped/
I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but
the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.
Cheers,
--
Dave Ihnat
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[Gordon Messmer]

They dropped "releases".   What it is now appears to be a continuous
stream of rolling updates with no defined 7.9 release, just a stream.

They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases.  And that's
good, because minor releases in CentOS were a bug.  They did not improve
reliability the way that minor releases improve RHEL reliability.

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[Dave Ihnat]

Post by Gordon Messmer
They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases.  And that's
good, because ...

Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have
production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than
latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang
refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production
environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.

Cheers,

[Gordon Messmer]

Post by Dave Ihnat
Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have
production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than
latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang
refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production
environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.

CentOS Stream provides LTS stability, though a lot of community
reactions would lead you to believe otherwise.  CentOS Stream is *not*
latest'n'greatest.
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[Matthew Miller]

Post by Dave Ihnat
Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have
production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than
latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang
refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production
environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.

I know there's a lot of worry, but this particular one doesn't really make
sense. All changes going into CentOS Stream are accepted for inclusion in an
upcoming minor release of RHEL. You get those updates sooner rather than
later, but the net result is the same.

--
Matthew Miller
<***@fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
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[Ian Pilcher]

Post by Matthew Miller
I know there's a lot of worry, but this particular one doesn't really make
sense. All changes going into CentOS Stream are accepted for inclusion in an
upcoming minor release of RHEL. You get those updates sooner rather than
later, but the net result is the same.

IMO, the "stability" issue with CentOS stream is around the possible
level of "churn" in the package stream.

By way of contrast, there's no question that there will be vastly more
change in the underlying code between one Fedora kernel RPM and the
next. The thing that is potentially (I haven't checked) similar though
is the frequency with which those RPMs are released.

If CentOS Stream is frequently releasing updated kernel RPMs, CentOS
Stream admins still have to either apply those updates and reboot, or
they have to invest the time to understand the (presumably very minor)
differences between those kernel RPMs in order to determine whether they
need to do so.

So it's not stability in the sense of stuff being broken; it's stability
in the sense of stuff being disruptive.

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[Tim via users]

Post by Ian Pilcher
So it's not stability in the sense of stuff being broken; it's
stability in the sense of stuff being disruptive.

I can see three major aspects to that:

1. Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep
on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A
well managed rolling-release system may succeed there. But speaking as
a person who gave up doing updates on updates years ago, now always
does fresh installs, as it removes detritus that accumulates over the
years, I forsee that a rolling-release system will accumulate cruft
that causes problems over the years.

2. Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of
their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep
changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro
that's more reliable.

3. Those who need a trustworthy system running in their office,
business, lab, whatever, may only use systems that they can vet
adequately. A changing system is inherently unvetted, and may not
allow such systems to be used.

I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too
disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck
at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I
read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be
replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.

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[Gordon Messmer]

Post by Tim via users
1. Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep
on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A
well managed rolling-release system may succeed there.

Cool, but neither Fedora nor CentOS Stream are rolling releases, so
there's no reason to worry about this with any of the systems in discussion.

Post by Tim via users
2. Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of
their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep
changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro
that's more reliable.

The API/ABI policy is the same for CentOS Stream as it is for the
corresponding RHEL release, so the goalposts aren't going to move any
more on CentOS Stream than they do on RHEL (or on CentOS today).

On Fedora, of course, the goalposts may shift at roughly 6 month intervals.

Post by Tim via users
I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too
disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck
at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I
read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be
replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.

I don't know what you've read about CentOS Stream, but the vast majority
of what I've read from sources outside Red Hat have been pure FUD.  An
awful lot of people have entirely the wrong idea about what's happening.
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[bruce]

Thanks for all the comments!

A number of things to consider.

An additional question? Are there any resources/services/people you
might know of who do remote sys admin stuff for the small dev/project
operation?

Thanks

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 12:21 PM Gordon Messmer

Post by Gordon Messmer

Post by Tim via users
1. Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep
on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A
well managed rolling-release system may succeed there.

Cool, but neither Fedora nor CentOS Stream are rolling releases, so
there's no reason to worry about this with any of the systems in discussion.

Post by Tim via users
2. Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of
their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep
changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro
that's more reliable.

The API/ABI policy is the same for CentOS Stream as it is for the
corresponding RHEL release, so the goalposts aren't going to move any
more on CentOS Stream than they do on RHEL (or on CentOS today).
On Fedora, of course, the goalposts may shift at roughly 6 month intervals.

Post by Tim via users
I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too
disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck
at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I
read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be
replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.

I don't know what you've read about CentOS Stream, but the vast majority
of what I've read from sources outside Red Hat have been pure FUD. An
awful lot of people have entirely the wrong idea about what's happening.
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[Tim via users]

They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases. And that's
good, because minor releases in CentOS were a bug. They did not
improve reliability the way that minor releases improve RHEL
reliability.
http://youtu.be/tf_EkU3x2G0

Arrghhh, someone narrating their power point presentation.


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[John Mellor]

Post by Dave Ihnat

Post by Terry Polzin
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.

Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December;
https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-hat-dropped/
I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but
the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.

They didn't drop it at all.  They changed from a fixed release schedule
to a rolling release.  As a potential dev environment, this is a huge
improvement.  RedHat and CentOS tend to be running ancient versions of
tools and apps in the name of stability - not what you need when you're
developing new things.  I expect that the difference between Fedora (an
excellent dev platform IMHO) and CentOS (previously a trailing-edge
production platform) will shrink significantly.

If you develop on Fedora, your biggest issue is going to be how to
deploy on RedHat when their supported libs are 5 or 7 major revs back. 
I do not think that Fedora (and therefore also the new CentOS) will be
suitable for most deployments, unless you are ok with the agile mindset
- minor dev rework and redeploying constantly.  On the other hand, with
the latest updates always being installed, it is far more secure than
its locked-in-the-past parent.  RedHat tends to wait a long time and
then emit official security-only fixes every few months, leaving you
exposed for a pretty dangerous window if you don't pay for the most
expensive top-tier support.  YMMV of course.
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[Gordon Messmer]

Post by John Mellor
They didn't drop it at all.  They changed from a fixed release
schedule to a rolling release.  As a potential dev environment, this
is a huge improvement.  RedHat and CentOS tend to be running ancient
versions of tools and apps in the name of stability - not what you
need when you're developing new things.

As a point of clarification: CentOS Stream is not a rolling release, it
is a release with "rolling updates".  That is only to say that there are
no longer minor releases every six months. That's pretty much the only
significant change.  As a consequence, CentOS Stream is still going to
have the same "ancient versions" that RHEL does, overall.  Stream will
get updates destined for RHEL a little earlier than RHEL gets them, but
it's not going to get updates that would be unsuitable for RHEL.

For development systems where you want very contemporary packages,
Fedora is a good choice.  For production systems where you want more
conservative updates, CentOS Stream is a good choice.  For systems where
you want a support contract, RHEL is a good choice.
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[Tom Horsley]

On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:06:56 -0400

Post by bruce
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.

For things I want to be relatively stable, I've tended
to use the ubuntu LTS release with long support times
so I have no reason to upgrade frequently.

I started using fedora because where I worked our software
ran on redhat, and fedora was a good thing to use to get early
warning of things that would break in future redhat releases.
That got me used to fedora, so I've stuck with it for my main
system, but it does become annoying to upgrade every 6 months
(though I've just gone from 33 to 34 with relatively few problems).
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[George N. White III]

Post by Tom Horsley
On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:06:56 -0400

Post by bruce
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.

For things I want to be relatively stable, I've tended
to use the ubuntu LTS release with long support times
so I have no reason to upgrade frequently.

Ubuntu is very widely used around the world, but their LTS
releases sometimes mean you have to go outside the
core distro when you need a current version of some
library. Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu with simpler
desktop environment that many users prefer.

Post by Tom Horsley
I started using fedora because where I worked our software
ran on redhat, and fedora was a good thing to use to get early
warning of things that would break in future redhat releases.
That got me used to fedora, so I've stuck with it for my main
system, but it does become annoying to upgrade every 6 months
(though I've just gone from 33 to 34 with relatively few problems).

I use Fedora for similar reasons, and have VM's for other distros.
These are very useful when something doesn't work for a user
with another distro.

Debian unstable provides an early warning system for Ubuntu.

Some of my current projects "just work" in Debian, then I have
to work out what other distros got wrong. Many key libraries
have a myriad of build-time configuration options, starting with
compiler options that target low-end processors. Most
distros build the packages with a default configuration that
invariably omits a feature I need. All this means that I
end up installing only basic things and rely on local builds
of the libraries I'm using.

[Ralf Corsepius]

Post by bruce
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a
blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the
"work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud
VM..

In general, until not too long ago, Fedora used to be an excellent
choice for dev-purposes.

Unfortunately, this does not apply anymore, due to some strategic
decisions Fedora and RHAT have taken, IMO.

Post by bruce
At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop --
12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.
I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to
be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin
that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given
that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.

As much as I hate to say so, as a long term Fedora user, ATM, probably
some Ubuntu variant is the best choice.

Ralf
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[Samuel Sieb]

Post by Ralf Corsepius

Post by bruce
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a
blank slate to figure out what version of OS  should have on the
"work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud
VM..

In general, until not too long ago, Fedora used to be an excellent
choice for dev-purposes.
Unfortunately, this does not apply anymore, due to some strategic
decisions Fedora and RHAT have taken, IMO.

What are these decisions? I certainly don't see any reason why Fedora
isn't an excellent choice for development. I haven't had any problems
with it.
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[David]

I am not qualified to answer your question, but I will throw in some vague
opinions.

You probably do not want to be updating your system and packages every
week. Some packages you may want to never update: systemd, mesa, glibc,
kernel, plymouth, firefox. You might not want wayland, pipewire, the
latest Bluetooth, Gnome 40.

You may want to AVOID a laptop with an Nvidia card.

You may want to avoid a laptop with any dedicated graphics card.

You may find your new laptop's internal wi-fi does not work.


Why use Fedora ? If you are in USA, it is a good choice. The forums
are helpful - as long as you make a faithful effort to learn to fix things
with some vague guidance.

You probably do not need Version 34.

Dozens of small but great Linux distros lack package maintainers and
mirrors and developers. A good example is Mageia and OpenMandriva.

OpenSUSE Leap is popular.

There are a lot of distros that are really just prototypes, or Alpha
quality. For example, Devuan.

Some fine distros are barely treading-water, like Peppermint, and Seduction.

Some distros are popular in a certain region. For example, ROSA is an
excellent distro, but most of the fan-base is Russian. Similar thing
could be said about Deepin being popular in China.

Since you are likely going to purchase a Windows laptop, then you should
try to run one of the Linux distros offered by the WSL2.

Linux specific laptops are still to expensive for most users. It is a
risky investment.

Another idea, is since the market is moving towards ARM-based laptop's, you
might consider a totally new platform.

A cheap option worth at least looking at is that with a good Chromebook,
you can run Linux apps pretty good. Unless you hate Google, it seems like
an interesting way to learn Linux ( Crostini ?? )

You probably want Fedora 33 Xfce or Mate.

Feel free to correct me, shoot me, or enlighten me.

David Locklear
Arcola, Texas USA
Newbie Rawhide User
"Live on the Edge, Live in Rawhide on Metal"